Turkey fans BOO during pre-match minute's silence for the victims of Paris attacks an

[Unregistered]

Liberals wanted the elimination of the draft. Now they want it back.

This is wrong too. Many liberals have advocated for a draft for decades without the kind of exemptions we used to have. When the powerful are at risk for seeing their children lose their lives over foreign adventurism when they had other plans for them, we will have more sober decision making before engaging militarily.

Silly rabbit. Ive wanted the draft back since Bush went into Iraq. I have family members who felt that way longer but they we actually more liberal than me. Alert all my dad a WWII vet voted for mcgovern BECAUSE of his empathy and concern for the troops some years after he spent a few years in a far east hellhole himself.

oh he enlisted. Someone asked who will serve if conservatives don't.

My dad WWII vet....first cousin WWII combat vet euyrope.....2nd cousin vitnasm vet....first cousin.....special forces during could war deployed to easter europe ....another cousin....spedcial forces before during and after Gulf War I. I've mentioned my dad before but i always kept a lid on the rest in case i may have mentioned it to someone reading that i may have met in meat world but I don't care anymore.

Everyone a liberal among them. Im more conservative than most.

This is another lie spread by the crazy right wingers.

I think liberal/progressive families like mine love america a lot more than ex lax. look at that history and I'm still advocating for freedom and inclusion.


Yer pal,

the perfesser

[Unregistered]

You are reading too much into my posts. I have rarely spoken about GW other than in the context that he got us into two disastrous ill advised wars that we are still paying the price for in terms of national debt, resentment among the muslim world, and a horrific price in terms of damaged lives of thousands of veterans. So yes I do blame him for that. He was the decider in chief and he is responsible for the outfall of those bad decisions. Who else is to blame? Cheney & Rummy? Face it - GW was in over his head. Obama has been saddled with cleaning up his mess with an obstructive Congress.

- Cujo

Obama has been saddled with cleaning up the mess??? And what he has done has only made the mess far worse. Good lord almighty! Don't you see that???

[Unregistered]

This is wrong too. Many liberals have advocated for a draft for decades without the kind of exemptions we used to have. When the powerful are at risk for seeing their children lose their lives over foreign adventurism when they had other plans for them, we will have more sober decision making before engaging militarily.

Silly rabbit. Ive wanted the draft back since Bush went into Iraq. I have family members who felt that way longer but they we actually more liberal than me. Alert all my dad a WWII vet voted for mcgovern BECAUSE of his empathy and concern for the troops some years after he spent a few years in a far east hellhole himself.

oh he enlisted. Someone asked who will serve if conservatives don't.

My dad WWII vet....first cousin WWII combat vet euyrope.....2nd cousin vitnasm vet....first cousin.....special forces during could war deployed to easter europe ....another cousin....spedcial forces before during and after Gulf War I. I've mentioned my dad before but i always kept a lid on the rest in case i may have mentioned it to someone reading that i may have met in meat world but I don't care anymore.

Everyone a liberal among them. Im more conservative than most.

This is another lie spread by the crazy right wingers.

I think liberal/progressive families like mine love america a lot more than ex lax. look at that history and I'm still advocating for freedom and inclusion.


Yer pal,

the perfesser

I repeat, liberals wanted the elimination of the draft. I know. I am old enough to have have many friends and relatives draw a low draft number way back when.

[Unregistered]

ill add that the special forces guys and viet nam guy enlisted.

SO put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Am i acting butthurt though and demanding that YOU respect the service of my family members like you namely pamby conservatives do ever time you hide behind your false patriotism?

nope. I care that decent people respect my dad's and others service. But all would despise and those alive do despise your values....im in touch so i can speak to that....so they would not want that either...they served for values quite OPPOSITE OF yours.

Keep that in mind that i value insights on the ground from people i know and respect so many of my values are drawn in large part on the influence of these folks. we are close that way.

more to show we are pretty close to an average american family

since there may be up to three non nutters posting here today...refreshing...ill sign off so you can keep track even though i never proof and still have auto correct on....but ill be explicit

yer pal,

the perfesser

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=Unregistered;1717183]

Give me a break. Seems that the Saudis have done quite well under the protection of the US, as well as several other Arab countries thanks to their oil. The issues in the Middle East are issues within their own governments, as well as Sunni/Shiite religious issues. And you want to blame the tiny country of Isreal for that???

excellent point. we turn a blind eye. out greatest national shame is that our government says NOTHING about beheadings there.....jeez....you think that al queda / ISIS habit of cutting off heads came out of nowhere ? think they invented it to terrorize?

SO you right wingers can talk when your ilk condemn them and say we should cut ourselves off from their oil.

i get sick evertime i see the pictures of the bush oil guys KISSING the king and princes of saudi arabia.

THERE is your road map to the world wee have created. ever hear a right winger condemn and say we should EMBARGO their oil over their burlily as well as their not-so-clandestine-anymore finaciual support of al quidi and isis that seem to be a counterweight against too much shiite power in middle east?

we overlook their financing of the terrorist groups we are told we have to lose our freedoms and impoverish ourselves over so we don't die in our beds. The saudis finale them so that they turn their interests elsewhere rather than against there CORRUPT saudi royal family and the throwback culture they have. we forget that iran and iraq are far more fundamentalist now because of saudi money underwriting the activities of all kinds of groups there for decades plus generations of puppet western military governments that did not have the best interests of the indigenous people in heart so long as the cheap oil flows

i suspect as long as the saudi cheap oil continues to flow that is the ransom they pay so that we don't do anything other than turn the crank in those countries...more american kids dying...more treasure flowing from our taxes.....to the oil guys and the saudi princes

you nutters don't see it do you?

yer pal,

the perfesser

[Unregistered]

I repeat, liberals wanted the elimination of the draft. I know. I am old enough to have have many friends and relatives draw a low draft number way back when.

this is the perfesser.

I bat right handed. I am stepping into the box and pointing at the center field fence....

tee hee

bawl haha

I've said already give supported a draft since the iraq war and other liberals have as well. Not all. many have.

Some nutbag parses words and repeats categorically that he "remembers" when liberals wanted the draft ending and knows that the dumb***** hallelujah nutmeg chorus will run with that.

Im old enough to remember too. Coming out of the vietnam war, liberals knew that no one with any sway had to go to viet nam if they didn't want to. we all know about the chicken hawks like dick cheney rush limbaugh and all those guys getting deferment after deferment while my relatives VOLUNTEERED to serve.

where do you think my confidence was born that I am in fact far braver than you chicken hawk conservatives who hide behind your keyboards and echo the words of people like limbaugh and cheney? why do you THINK i look down on you? You want OTHER people to go die in support of your glorious conservative philosophy.

Anyway the draft was discontinued because it was a system that also seemed beyond fixing....deferments were set up as a protection racket to make sure the "right" people didn't have to have their kids tapped on shoulder.

but Im not the only progressive calling for end of draft

the nutbags hate charles rangel with a passion but he has introduced legislation to reinitiate the draft in every congress since 2003.

wondert if this plays in

"Rangel was born in Harlem in New York City. He earned a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for his service in the U.S. Army during the Korean War, where he led a group of soldiers out of a deadly Chinese army encirclement during the Battle of Kunu-ri in 1950. "

You guys don't respect his service either. I just read what he actually did for first time so i guess he doesn't brag. THESE are the kind of men we should listen to. not COWARDS. regardless of how you feel about his other views.

yep. he enlisted like my dad and relatives. but remember .....its not those who have heroically served and those close to them (me for example, rangel) for any insights....the nutters march lock step in military matters with the cheneys and other swells who are too cowardly to serve themselves but love to send other peoples children to die CASUALLY

so nutters stop your mealy mouthed parsing of words around this draft issue....not some new idea

yer pal,

the perfesser

[Unregistered]

Im reproducing this part for the nutters. THIS is the kind of american story you should be holding up. I had no idea because like my dads and then my older cousins generations (alas better than ours ex lax) they didn't blow their horns.

hes an impressie man...didnt know he was hispoqanic and african american....deans list student...guess he wasn't product of your loathed affirmative action.

Quite the man who appears to be the equal of anyone of any color.

Im wondering if this is the BIGGEST reason you nutters hate this man so much. His authentic experience informs his attitudes and you have a hard time lying around people like this....and ion much smaller way me actually.

Rangel was born in Harlem in New York City on June 11, 1930.[4] His father, Ralph Rangel, was from Puerto Rico and came to New York in 1914, while his African American mother, Blanche Mary Wharton Rangel, was from New York City with family roots in Virginia.[5][nb 1] Charles was the second of three children,[4] with an older brother Ralph Jr. and a younger sister Frances.[5] Ralph Rangel sometimes worked as a laborer in a garage,[5] but he was mostly a frequently absent, unemployed man who was abusive to his wife and who left the family when Charles was six years old.[4][6] Charles was raised by his mother, who worked as a maid and as a seamstress in a factory in New York's Garment District, and by his maternal grandfather.[6][7] Many summers were spent in Accomac, Virginia, where his maternal family had roots.[8] Charles was brought up as a Roman Catholic.[9]

Rangel did well in elementary and middle school,[4] and began working at a neighborhood drug store at the age of eight.[6] Rangel then attended DeWitt Clinton High School,[7] but was often truant and was sometimes driven home by the police.[6] His maternal grandfather, an early role model who worked in a courthouse and knew many judges and lawyers, kept him from getting into more serious trouble.[6] Rangel dropped out at age 16 during his junior year and worked in various low-paying jobs, including selling shoes.[6][7][10]

Rangel then enlisted in the United States Army, and served from 1948 to 1952.[11] During the Korean War, he was an artillery operations specialist in the all-black 503rd Field Artillery Battalion in the 2nd Infantry Division,[12][13] equipped with the 155 mm Howitzer M1.[14] (While President Harry S. Truman had signed the order to desegregate the military in 1948, little progress in doing so had been made during peacetime, and the large majority of units initially sent to Korea were still segregated.[15]) Rangel's unit arrived in Pusan, South Korea, in August 1950 and then began moving north as U.N. forces advanced deep into North Korea.[13]

Seven men with rifles firing from behind a bulldozer, in a barren landscape with river and mountains in distance
A 2nd Infantry Division unit near Rangel's, fighting a rear-guard action in the Battle of Kunu-ri, in November 1950, during the Korean War.
In late November 1950, after the Chinese intervention into the war, his unit was caught up in heavy fighting in North Korea as part of the U.N. forces retreat from the Yalu River. In the Battle of Kunu-ri, the 2nd Infantry was assigned to hold a road position near Kunu-ri while the rest of the Eighth Army retreated to Sunchon, 21 miles further south. On the night of November 29, 1950, the 2nd Infantry was attacked by gradually encircling forces of the Chinese Army, who set up a fireblock to cut off any U.S. retreat. The eerie blare of Chinese night-fighting bugle calls and communication flares[16] piercing the freezing air led to what Rangel later described as a "waking nightmare, scene by scene, and we couldn't see any possible way out of the situation."[17] During the day of November 30, the order came to withdraw the 2nd Infantry in phases, but the 503rd Artillery Battalion was sixth of eight in the order and could not get out in daylight when air cover was possible.[18]

On the night of November 30, Rangel was part of a retreating vehicle column that was trapped and attacked by Chinese forces.[12][19] In the subzero cold, Rangel was injured in the back by shrapnel from a Chinese shell.[20] He later wrote that the blast threw him into a ditch and caused him to pray fervently to Jesus.[19] Up and down the line of the retreat, unit cohesion disappeared under attack and officers lost contact with their men.[21] There was screaming and moaning around him and some U.S. soldiers were being taken prisoner,[11] but despite feeling overwhelming fear Rangel resolved to try to escape over an imposing mountain: "From the rim of that gully it just looked like everything had to be better on the other side of that damn mountain."[19]

Others nearby looked to Rangel, who though only a private first class had a reputation for leadership in the unit and had gained the nickname "Sarge".[19] Rangel led some 40 men from his unit over the mountain during the night and out of the Chinese encirclement.[11] Other groups were trying to do the same, but some men dropped from the severe conditions or got lost and were never heard from again.[22][23] By midday on December 1, U.S. aircraft were dropping supplies and directions to Rangel's group and others, and had a raft ready to take them across the Taedong River; groups from the 503rd Artillery reached Sunchon that afternoon.[22][24] Overall, no part of the 2nd Infantry suffered as many casualties as the artillery;[25] it tried to save, but eventually lost, all its guns,[26] and nearly half of the battalion was killed in the overall battle.[27]

Rangel was treated first at a field hospital, then moved to a general hospital well behind the lines in South Korea where he recuperated.[28] He eventually returned to regular duty, then was rotated back to the U.S. in July 1951.[28]

Rangel was awarded a Purple Heart for his wounds, the Bronze Star with Valor for his actions in the face of death, and three battle stars.[29] His Army unit was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation[nb 2] and the Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation.[29] In 2000, Rangel reflected to CBS News that

"Since Kunu Ri – and I mean it with all my heart, I have never, never had a bad day."[12]

After an honorable discharge from the Army in 1952 with the rank of staff sergeant,[11] he returned home to headlines in The New York Amsterdam News.[6] Rangel later viewed his time in the Army, away from the poverty of his youth, as a major turning point in his life: "When I was exposed to a different life, even if that life was just the Army, I knew damn well I couldn't get back to the same life I had left."[30]

Rangel finished high school, completing two years of studies in one year and graduating in 1953.[7] Rangel then received a Bachelor of Science degree from the New York University School of Commerce in 1957, where he made the dean's list.[11] Then, on full scholarship, he obtained his law degree from the St. John's University School of Law in 1960.[31]

[Unregistered]

ill add that the special forces guys and viet nam guy enlisted.

SO put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Am i acting butthurt though and demanding that YOU respect the service of my family members like you namely pamby conservatives do ever time you hide behind your false patriotism?

nope. I care that decent people respect my dad's and others service. But all would despise and those alive do despise your values....im in touch so i can speak to that....so they would not want that either...they served for values quite OPPOSITE OF yours.

Keep that in mind that i value insights on the ground from people i know and respect so many of my values are drawn in large part on the influence of these folks. we are close that way.

more to show we are pretty close to an average american family

since there may be up to three non nutters posting here today...refreshing...ill sign off so you can keep track even though i never proof and still have auto correct on....but ill be explicit

yer pal,

the perfesser

Good stuff. The greatest fiction is that soldiers do what they do because of love of country. That crap is gone two weeks into basic as they bond with their fellow soldiers. These guys fight for each other. I have the personal experience that is how it is with my family. Father served in three wars and was Korea combat vet, my brother spent 20 years in the sub service and ended as E-8. Nephew was army intelligence and served 10 years in the Army, three tours in Afghanistan. Only people outside of military think they die and fight for their country. That sh*t is for recruiting purposes only.

- Cujo

[Unregistered]

Pretty cool.

Would he have booed during a moment of silence?

[Unregistered]

When we were kids, the nuns used to beat us to get us to learn.

How did that work?

How bout trying another approach. Leave the fighting to the uncivilized - let's make a new world order.

excellent point.

My dad and my uncle didn't continue in school beyond seventh and fourth grade because the nuns beat them with rulers for being left handed and then beat them more because their penmanship wasn't good enough with their right hands. Trust me. They were natively v very bright. No accident that all their children graduated from college, and some hold terminal graduate degrees.

My dad tried to go to public school then but that was dominated by a different ethnic group and he took beatings every day because he was part of a different group.

This was in the 1920's and we have learned so little.

I agree. Leave fighting to the uncivilized.

thanks for posting.

- the perfesser

[Unregistered]

You are reading too much into my posts. I have rarely spoken about GW other than in the context that he got us into two disastrous ill advised wars that we are still paying the price for in terms of national debt, resentment among the muslim world, and a horrific price in terms of damaged lives of thousands of veterans. So yes I do blame him for that. He was the decider in chief and he is responsible for the outfall of those bad decisions. Who else is to blame? Cheney & Rummy? Face it - GW was in over his head. Obama has been saddled with cleaning up his mess with an obstructive Congress.

- Cujo

I'll take that as a 'no' then.

[Unregistered]

this is the perfesser.

I bat right handed. I am stepping into the box and pointing at the center field fence....

tee hee

bawl haha

I've said already give supported a draft since the iraq war and other liberals have as well. Not all. many have.

Some nutbag parses words and repeats categorically that he "remembers" when liberals wanted the draft ending and knows that the dumb***** hallelujah nutmeg chorus will run with that.

Im old enough to remember too. Coming out of the vietnam war, liberals knew that no one with any sway had to go to viet nam if they didn't want to. we all know about the chicken hawks like dick cheney rush limbaugh and all those guys getting deferment after deferment while my relatives VOLUNTEERED to serve.

where do you think my confidence was born that I am in fact far braver than you chicken hawk conservatives who hide behind your keyboards and echo the words of people like limbaugh and cheney? why do you THINK i look down on you? You want OTHER people to go die in support of your glorious conservative philosophy.

Anyway the draft was discontinued because it was a system that also seemed beyond fixing....deferments were set up as a protection racket to make sure the "right" people didn't have to have their kids tapped on shoulder.

but Im not the only progressive calling for end of draft

the nutbags hate charles rangel with a passion but he has introduced legislation to reinitiate the draft in every congress since 2003.

wondert if this plays in

"Rangel was born in Harlem in New York City. He earned a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for his service in the U.S. Army during the Korean War, where he led a group of soldiers out of a deadly Chinese army encirclement during the Battle of Kunu-ri in 1950. "

You guys don't respect his service either. I just read what he actually did for first time so i guess he doesn't brag. THESE are the kind of men we should listen to. not COWARDS. regardless of how you feel about his other views.

yep. he enlisted like my dad and relatives. but remember .....its not those who have heroically served and those close to them (me for example, rangel) for any insights....the nutters march lock step in military matters with the cheneys and other swells who are too cowardly to serve themselves but love to send other peoples children to die CASUALLY

so nutters stop your mealy mouthed parsing of words around this draft issue....not some new idea

yer pal,

the perfesser

No one reads you posts Teeheeman. They're too long.

[Unregistered]

No one reads you posts Teeheeman. They're too long.

I tried, I really did. But, the lack of punctuation, spelling errors, and just general disregard for the written language makes it impossible.

Yet, I'm the dumb one.....

[Unregistered]

Good stuff. The greatest fiction is that soldiers do what they do because of love of country. That crap is gone two weeks into basic as they bond with their fellow soldiers. These guys fight for each other. I have the personal experience that is how it is with my family. Father served in three wars and was Korea combat vet, my brother spent 20 years in the sub service and ended as E-8. Nephew was army intelligence and served 10 years in the Army, three tours in Afghanistan. Only people outside of military think they die and fight for their country. That sh*t is for recruiting purposes only.

- Cujo

oh here here. i know exactly what you are saying. So let me share this too.

my attitudes toward race were shaped by my dad. I've been called out here as a privileged limousine liberals who has had it easy and thats why i embrace my progressive values. i don't understand reality they tell me. so here is mine.

My dad served in a horrible place. where they couldn't turn their backs on their chinese allies. they also had mao's guys around and they couldnt tell them from our ostensible allies outside camp. Of course, in that area the japanese were fighting essentially a guerrilla war with tactics that would inform the vietnamese later.....they were trying to slow construction of a supply road and had these guerialls in the jungles sniping all the time. My dad weighed about 120 then so was called upon to climb into a few of those spider holes. i don't even want to discuss the disease prior to modern treatments for malaria. my dad had relapses for more than decade. Never received any service connected disability because his records were destroyed in a fire.

he wasn't bitter. Neither am I. Nutbags are murderously bitter about hangnails in comparison.

I didn't grow up around blacks because white miners were pretty much the lowest class where i grew up.

But my dad spent time with blacks. Over there. It was segregated then but my dad told me they quickly learned to have each others backs. he said that in the god forsaken jungle on the other side of the earth that he learned that all americans had a lot more in common than their differences. I guess thats why when I left town at 17 and hit the big city, i had preconceptions i still had to deal with but they looked nothing like what many whites carried around at that time




Thats what underlies my liberal/progressive values

[Unregistered]

Here is the essence of the problem and it is born out of ignorance.

For half a century i thought I led a typical american story. Second generation. Proud patriotic hard working americans that still maintained old world values. My generation educated due to combination of hard working parents AND a system where you could finance college with grants based on merit and need, loans, etc and a culture where the young could get a start for less money.

I want that for everyone but I remember our immigrant roots. We came between 1870-1890 so pretty early but not legally. Wasn't legal or illegal but sick of everyone saying their ancestors came legally. They didn't.

But back to my point...for 50 years Ive thought our wonderful constitutions main purpose was to ensure FREEDOM and as a corollary OPPORTUNITY as its primary function. That the founding fathers the nutters invoke all the time were motivated by this at least to a large degree.

Now I find out that this document exists to keep us under MINDFUL CONTROL?

behold the lizard brain. The good people ignored the nutters for too long. Look what their deranged authoritarian thinking has wrought?

Is it any surprise that so many proto-fascists are among our presidential candidates?

Mindful control NOT mind control, you moron. Or in other words our Constitution and the Bill of Rights is meant to keep it's citizenry ever mindful of the God given rights of its citizenry.