The ECNL Sales Pitch - Fact or Fiction

[Unregistered]

The fact that I have to explain that having 1 child go "through the process" and having 8 children of both genders, through all 3 divisions (not my example) is not the same is tedious. You are the smartypants. Figure it out.

The point is, you are not an expert. You on this thread and many others have spouted about what to expect and you have been very definitive. Fact is, by your own admission, that you have a very limited experience. Stop the Bull****. You know what you know which ain't much.

Not DYOR. You are not bright enough to participate in this forum. You don't even get an analogy about what would count for you as enough experience. Were you expecting Sir Alex Ferguson? Do you have a CV that exceeds what DYOR shared? Exactly. Go directly to the South Dakota forum where maybe someone will take you seriously.

[Unregistered]

The fact that I have to explain that having 1 child go "through the process" and having 8 children of both genders, through all 3 divisions (not my example) is not the same is tedious. You are the smartypants. Figure it out.

The point is, you are not an expert. You on this thread and many others have spouted about what to expect and you have been very definitive. Fact is, by your own admission, that you have a very limited experience. Stop the Bull****. You know what you know which ain't much.

It isn't rocket science. There are many people online who have posted the stories of their recruiting. I have spoken to at least 20 families who have gone through the soccer process in the last 10 year.

You can try and argue that I don't have the experience to know what I'm talking about, but I haven't seen you try and point out somewhere specifically that I am wrong.

DYOR

[Unregistered]

You have a case of mistaken identity but why should we let that ruin an otherwise good story.

Right. Bottom line. Did btdt do any posting today?

Let's guess his number of posts....

Zero?

Five?

15-20?

More than 20?

[Unregistered]

The fact that I have to explain that having 1 child go "through the process" and having 8 children of both genders, through all 3 divisions (not my example) is not the same is tedious. You are the smartypants. Figure it out.

The point is, you are not an expert. You on this thread and many others have spouted about what to expect and you have been very definitive. Fact is, by your own admission, that you have a very limited experience. Stop the Bull****. You know what you know which ain't much.

My experience might not quite rise to the level of an expert, then again I didn't realize posting advice on an internet forum required expert level credentials.

Discussion and advice is a good thing. The more we share our experiences and our research the more everyone else can make informed decisions.

Post your advice that runs counter to mine and we can debate the relative merits.

DYOR

[Unregistered]

Right. Bottom line. Did btdt do any posting today?

Let's guess his number of posts....

Zero?

Five?

15-20?

More than 20?

My guess is zero.

DYOR

[Unregistered]

Not DYOR. You are not bright enough to participate in this forum. You don't even get an analogy about what would count for you as enough experience. Were you expecting Sir Alex Ferguson? Do you have a CV that exceeds what DYOR shared? Exactly. Go directly to the South Dakota forum where maybe someone will take you seriously.

Not bright enough for TS? HA HA HA HA.

[Unregistered]

My guess is zero.

DYOR

My guess is 23. I do think I was wrong that he was the one challenging DYOR in the past hour, at least in terms of the followup posts, because those would have been a little more sophisticated.

[Unregistered]

My guess is 23. I do think I was wrong that he was the one challenging DYOR in the past hour, at least in terms of the followup posts, because those would have been a little more sophisticated.

Thanks DYOR

[Unregistered]

My experience might not quite rise to the level of an expert, then again I didn't realize posting advice on an internet forum required expert level credentials.

Discussion and advice is a good thing. The more we share our experiences and our research the more everyone else can make informed decisions.

Post your advice that runs counter to mine and we can debate the relative merits.

DYOR

You by your own admission have NO practical experience with the ECNL and its merits regarding the recruiting process. You state you are "early in the process", translation-I don't really know.

The number of posts you make does not make you well versed but rather prolific.

You make generalizations about recruiting with no mention of male vs. female. Major differences in regards to number of scholarships and money.

I get the feeling I am arguing with an unemployed guy. No winning that one.

[Unregistered]

You by your own admission have NO practical experience with the ECNL and its merits regarding the recruiting process. You state you are "early in the process", translation-I don't really know.

The number of posts you make does not make you well versed but rather prolific.

You make generalizations about recruiting with no mention of male vs. female. Major differences in regards to number of scholarships and money.

I get the feeling I am arguing with an unemployed guy. No winning that one.

So you position is that a parent who has spent the last two years talking to parents of older kids (in college and in the process), club coaches (both ours and others) and college coaches (at camps, recruiting seminars and unofficial visits) has no valuable experience or opinions to share. And nothing I have to say is of any value to those entering the high school years.

Personally, I think you've managed to get me to explain my experience in such a way that it gives me more credibility. But to each his own.

As for boys vs girls - I don't think I don't intentionally generalize about both girls and boy in the same post. Usually I am posting my advice in girls threads since my son was much less concerned about where he was going to play (or not) than my daugher and thus his college search required less preperation and research. That being said, going through the process, however casually, with him was a good hands on exercise in what to expect for her.

As for scholarships, I don't know how many ways I can say it - I don't consider a scholarship an important part of the discussion. We're not in this for a scholarship, I don't talk much about scholarships, there isn't much money available on either side of the table.

I might be unemployed, either that or I may have such a position that I am expected to be within arms reach of the internet at all waking hours. Again, not really sure how that relates to my credibility to give advice.

DYOR

[Unregistered]

All of your opinions are fine, but that doesn't equate to the email being inflammatory. That is such an enormous distortion. There are no lies in it. It doesn't attack anyone. It's actually quite benign. ECNL attracts a lot of coaches. People talk constantly about how DAP attracts a lot of coaches. None of that means you can't find another way or your way to get recruited if that's something you want to do. If all of these pages really have been about this email, then many of you really are unfortunate.

Sorry I don't see unsolicited spam with such controversial content as being benign. The difference between it and the MPS email are fairly clear from my perspective. The sole intent of the Scorpions email is to try to convince players committed to other clubs to leave their club and join the Scorpions. The MPS email is simply trying to sell a clinic and it is pretty clear that attending it does not require changing clubs. The MPS email talks about generic benefits that would be earned by attending that clinic. The Scorpions email is making very specific claims that clearly are intended to promote the idea that they are a better club than the one the recipient belongs to. Yes they are both sales pieces but I just don't equate selling a clinic with trying to induce a club change especially since I don't believe the logic used to motivate that club change is actually accurate.

Everyone is entitled to sell their product but grabbing content from a club's website and comparing it to unsolicited spam is completely silly. Spam is an invasion of our privacy but we have to choose to visit that website to view that content. We don't have to go to the NEFC website if we are not interested in their sales pitch. The Scorpions did not give us that option, they just put their sales pitch in someone's face. They are completely different propositions in my book and the fact that you would use the NEFC website content in that way shows how biased you are.

Wow. You simply refuse to see that sending an inflamatory email out like that deserves a response. OK here is what you seem to want. Lets see how soundly it get trashed. I doubt any of the ECNL folks will agree but lets try.

I am in the camp that doesn't think the ECNL development model is the best because it puts too much emphasis on the competitions. Otherwise why travel? Creates too much pressure to win which I believe is counter productive to development. Would much rather play a bunch of friendlies against you guys and some older girls teams then just give it a whirl at the state cup. I like NEP for this reason. It is more informal.

I also don't believe the showcase model is the best way to go about getting recruited. I think it is completely inefficient and costs way too much money relative to the reward. I believe in the referral model which relies more on targeting based upon school fit and working to get to meet the coach there. I believe that all travel is completely over rated.

I also think the ODP route is far more productive a path to follow than the alternatives like ID2. Something like 90% of the National team has come through ODP and it actually give much better exposure because of things like Rider and the Inter Regionals. I believe that most of the players that end up going to camps like ID2 still participate in ODP and get indentified there first.

I share a dislike of commitment lists because I know they are completely misleading and have absolutely no bearing on what will happen in the future. I believe commitment lists are a cheap way to glam on to an athlete's personal success.

Thank you - much better tone and easier for useful debate.

I don't feel the pressure to win in ECNL is not all that high. All teams get to all showcases regardless of standing. ECNL is in essence a showcase league. That is not to say that the team goes out to lose, but the way things are setup, there are plenty of games that are essentially friendlies (currently A vs B games for example).

For me, I want my kids teams to travel to test them against different teams. Until you see where you as an individual or a team stand vs the rest of the world, you don't really have a true measuring stick. Everyone knows who the top 2 or 3 teams in the area are, but how good are they really? That's what travel tells me.

I have a hard time believing in the referal model of recruiting. I just can't see how it can work for the majority of players. Too many college teams out there and coaches just don't have that many contacts.

id2 vs ODP. Meh. For true National caliber players, they will get found. For everyone else they are a resume builder at best. ODP does have the history behind it, id2 hasn't really been going long enough to evaluate. Not a big selling point for me either way.

I like commitment lists. Past performance doesn't represent future performance but I am truly a believer that no matter how much a club recruits, there is a lot of development that goes on between u13 and u18. Commitment lists give an outsider a feel for the standards a club is trying to attain.

DYOR

I don't see where travelling to showcase where the results have longer term consequences cannot help but create pressure. There clearly is pressure to perform because they are in front of coaches that they are trying to impress. There is clearly pressure to win because the results matter. There is also pressure created by the expectations because everyone is spending quite a bit of money to be there so it obviously ups the ante.

I don't have a problem with you wanting to test your children in combat so to speak, I just believe that you can do it more efficiently. I simply will not buy that you have to fly anywhere to find a challenge. I guess part of this issue is I don't see the need your measuring stick. Whether the team wins or loses is a separate measurement and really has very little bearing on your kids development because your kid can play great and still lose. What I want to see is my kids get pushed to the brink and have to push themselves. I could care less if they lose as long as they push themselves and learn from the experience.

I have a sales background. Networking and referrals are vital part of how I see the world. In my realm you want to find the person who needs your product and make your sales pitch directly to them without including all of the tire kickers. That is why the referral model that NEFC essentially promotes makes so much sense to me. I truly believe the concept that it is all about who you know. I liken the exposure model that the Stars promote to be like direct mail. Yes it works but it is highly inefficient and ultimately costly.

I am not one of those who wants to shut down ID2 because I think the more stones you can over turn the better off the whole system will be. I just don't like those who constantly want to tear down ODP. It just strikes me as real self serving dogma for the US Club devotes and I think the players ultimately get caught in the middle. One incident that left a real sour taste with me was over hearing a Stars coach rip into a group Stars players for attending an ODP practice. He flat out told them the club did not want them there. From where I sit that is strong arming the players. I feel that mindset just closes down opportunity for the players and makes them dependent on the club. Being too dependent on any club is never good.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the commitment lists. I see it as a coach taking too much credit and feel it is real slimy. They are also notoriously misleading and you have no way of knowing if the player is an important piece of a recruiting class or just a walk on. Way to many clubs throw the names of schools out there as though they are sending future hall of famers to the school when the reality often is the player won't last the year. They are nothing but a backdoor endorsement.

So to clarify....you have 1 kid who has gone through the process and 1 who hasn't. It seems that you have about as much expertise as anyone else. More than some but certainly less than others. Your expertise is not soccer specific and you make no mention of what level the recruiting was at.

You have made specific claims about recruiting on other posts without regard to gender, i.e. you have made no distinction between male and female. The processes from what I understand can be very different based on the scholarship money available.

So in scientific terms....N=1. Strong on opinion, very short on real data.

I think that you are being unfair. I don't agree with many of DYOR's conclusions but he has gotten through some of this and does have some valuable perspective because of that. I suspect that some of it will change once he cycles his kids all the way through. Hindsight is 20/20. Specifically I think he will see just how insignificant all of these machinations that everyone is prompted to take part in really are. Once his kids start playing in college he will see that it becomes very businesslike. The players either have the talent of they don't. If they don't they are not around all that long. Once you get to that point you tend to look back on your assumptions and realize that so much of this is actually organic and would have happened regardless as long as you target things objectively. I have confidence he will see that and his opinions will undoubtedly change as a result.

[Unregistered]

DYOR .. Was just browsing a couple of the other threads. Looks like you have had a tough evening. Man the faithful turn pretty quickly don't they? Don't suffer the fools though just keep posting because knowledge is power and even though we see things differently I find what you post to be very thought provoking.

[Unregistered]

Sorry I don't see unsolicited spam with such controversial content as being benign. The difference between it and the MPS email are fairly clear from my perspective. The sole intent of the Scorpions email is to try to convince players committed to other clubs to leave their club and join the Scorpions. The MPS email is simply trying to sell a clinic and it is pretty clear that attending it does not require changing clubs. The MPS email talks about generic benefits that would be earned by attending that clinic. The Scorpions email is making very specific claims that clearly are intended to promote the idea that they are a better club than the one the recipient belongs to. Yes they are both sales pieces but I just don't equate selling a clinic with trying to induce a club change especially since I don't believe the logic used to motivate that club change is actually accurate.

Everyone is entitled to sell their product but grabbing content from a club's website and comparing it to unsolicited spam is completely silly. Spam is an invasion of our privacy but we have to choose to visit that website to view that content. We don't have to go to the NEFC website if we are not interested in their sales pitch. The Scorpions did not give us that option, they just put their sales pitch in someone's face. They are completely different propositions in my book and the fact that you would use the NEFC website content in that way shows how biased you are.



I don't see where travelling to showcase where the results have longer term consequences cannot help but create pressure. There clearly is pressure to perform because they are in front of coaches that they are trying to impress. There is clearly pressure to win because the results matter. There is also pressure created by the expectations because everyone is spending quite a bit of money to be there so it obviously ups the ante.

I don't have a problem with you wanting to test your children in combat so to speak, I just believe that you can do it more efficiently. I simply will not buy that you have to fly anywhere to find a challenge. I guess part of this issue is I don't see the need your measuring stick. Whether the team wins or loses is a separate measurement and really has very little bearing on your kids development because your kid can play great and still lose. What I want to see is my kids get pushed to the brink and have to push themselves. I could care less if they lose as long as they push themselves and learn from the experience.

I have a sales background. Networking and referrals are vital part of how I see the world. In my realm you want to find the person who needs your product and make your sales pitch directly to them without including all of the tire kickers. That is why the referral model that NEFC essentially promotes makes so much sense to me. I truly believe the concept that it is all about who you know. I liken the exposure model that the Stars promote to be like direct mail. Yes it works but it is highly inefficient and ultimately costly.

I am not one of those who wants to shut down ID2 because I think the more stones you can over turn the better off the whole system will be. I just don't like those who constantly want to tear down ODP. It just strikes me as real self serving dogma for the US Club devotes and I think the players ultimately get caught in the middle. One incident that left a real sour taste with me was over hearing a Stars coach rip into a group Stars players for attending an ODP practice. He flat out told them the club did not want them there. From where I sit that is strong arming the players. I feel that mindset just closes down opportunity for the players and makes them dependent on the club. Being too dependent on any club is never good.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the commitment lists. I see it as a coach taking too much credit and feel it is real slimy. They are also notoriously misleading and you have no way of knowing if the player is an important piece of a recruiting class or just a walk on. Way to many clubs throw the names of schools out there as though they are sending future hall of famers to the school when the reality often is the player won't last the year. They are nothing but a backdoor endorsement.



I think that you are being unfair. I don't agree with many of DYOR's conclusions but he has gotten through some of this and does have some valuable perspective because of that. I suspect that some of it will change once he cycles his kids all the way through. Hindsight is 20/20. Specifically I think he will see just how insignificant all of these machinations that everyone is prompted to take part in really are. Once his kids start playing in college he will see that it becomes very businesslike. The players either have the talent of they don't. If they don't they are not around all that long. Once you get to that point you tend to look back on your assumptions and realize that so much of this is actually organic and would have happened regardless as long as you target things objectively. I have confidence he will see that and his opinions will undoubtedly change as a result.

I agree, by the time the kids get there they will either have the skill or they won't. What they did between ages u14 and u18 is what determines if they will ultimately have the skill. If my daughter makes a roster and gets playing time I will be able to say with 100% certainty that it is because of the club she is with right now.

I saw where her development was going, and I saw how the trajectory of her development restarted when she changed clubs. I cannot say for certain that she will succeed but I can say for sure that if we had stayed where we were she would have a) stood no chance at making an impression with the school she is currently talking to and b) stood very little chance of contributing at the level of the schools she is currently talking to.

DYOR

[Unregistered]

Sorry I don't see unsolicited spam with such controversial content as being benign. The difference between it and the MPS email are fairly clear from my perspective. The sole intent of the Scorpions email is to try to convince players committed to other clubs to leave their club and join the Scorpions. The MPS email is simply trying to sell a clinic and it is pretty clear that attending it does not require changing clubs. The MPS email talks about generic benefits that would be earned by attending that clinic. The Scorpions email is making very specific claims that clearly are intended to promote the idea that they are a better club than the one the recipient belongs to. Yes they are both sales pieces but I just don't equate selling a clinic with trying to induce a club change especially since I don't believe the logic used to motivate that club change is actually accurate.

Everyone is entitled to sell their product but grabbing content from a club's website and comparing it to unsolicited spam is completely silly. Spam is an invasion of our privacy but we have to choose to visit that website to view that content. We don't have to go to the NEFC website if we are not interested in their sales pitch. The Scorpions did not give us that option, they just put their sales pitch in someone's face. They are completely different propositions in my book and the fact that you would use the NEFC website content in that way shows how biased you are.



I don't see where travelling to showcase where the results have longer term consequences cannot help but create pressure. There clearly is pressure to perform because they are in front of coaches that they are trying to impress. There is clearly pressure to win because the results matter. There is also pressure created by the expectations because everyone is spending quite a bit of money to be there so it obviously ups the ante.

I don't have a problem with you wanting to test your children in combat so to speak, I just believe that you can do it more efficiently. I simply will not buy that you have to fly anywhere to find a challenge. I guess part of this issue is I don't see the need your measuring stick. Whether the team wins or loses is a separate measurement and really has very little bearing on your kids development because your kid can play great and still lose. What I want to see is my kids get pushed to the brink and have to push themselves. I could care less if they lose as long as they push themselves and learn from the experience.

I have a sales background. Networking and referrals are vital part of how I see the world. In my realm you want to find the person who needs your product and make your sales pitch directly to them without including all of the tire kickers. That is why the referral model that NEFC essentially promotes makes so much sense to me. I truly believe the concept that it is all about who you know. I liken the exposure model that the Stars promote to be like direct mail. Yes it works but it is highly inefficient and ultimately costly.

My daughter has always enjoyed the excitement of playing new teams and testing herself against new players. There has never been any anxiety to perform. For her she is going out to play soccer, no matter who is there.

Traveling to find new, better teams to play keeps it fresh. You play the same local teams more than a couple of times and 9 times out of 10 everybody knows who is going to win. After the top couple of teams there is just too much disparity in skill and talent.

If the choice was playing on a okay team that traveled or a great team that didn't, I would have a very hard time choosing a team the didn't travel.

Networking sounds great in principle, I just can't believe it would work for us. For those players looking for localish schools - ok. But I can't believe a coach would have enough meaningful contacts in my daughter's target list of schools. Furthermore, as a coach I can count on one hand the coaches that I would trust to evaluate a player for me. I know a lot of greate coaches, but I also know that many of the value different things than I did. I want to see a kid play for myself, in game conditions, with their teammates.

DYOR

[Unregistered]

OMG this went on all night!