The ECNL Sales Pitch - Fact or Fiction

[Unregistered]

Thanks btdt. You saved me. We will play with Grasshopper.

So I take it that waiting around hoping to be picked for that level team is supposed to be some sort of trophy then? How pysched will you be when you realize that your player is just an after thought? Someone they put on the roster to balance the budget. You'll spend a fortune before you find out that being a bench player on a high level team is not all it is cracked up to be. Doesn't matter what league you play in. If you can't standout in a club tryout, you will not standout when college coaches are watching. If you can't standout all that you are doing is rolling the dice and praying. You would be better off going to church and lighting a candle, its cheaper!!

[Unregistered]

Good post but there are some misconceptions in your argument......

The truth is there is not a pot of gold waiting for every player at the end of the rainbow and many of the families racing down the ECNL road are just on a fools errand.

They start pushing the competitive envelope before the kids are fully developed physically and technically so they blaze through players trying to be the most competitive in the area just so they can market themselves as the front runner. Think about this, why in the world would anyone be lining their child up to play on a U13 ECNL team?

I actually happen to agree with a lot of what you said in your post. I do feel that kids are specializing at too early of an age and I also happen to think that technical skills are not developed enough. Anyone watching most kids playing around the ages of 12 to 14 and witnesses an attacker dribbling into a defender without any attempt at using evasive skill can see this problem.

The reason that I took out a few of your points was so that I could address them.

- It is true that many families will move to a club just because it is an ECNL club. However, a lot of those kids were already at said club prior to it becoming an ECNL club. What are those kids supposed to do? Leave the club because it is an ECNL club? Many are comfortable at their club, like the club, have friends at the club, and are getting good training at the club. The fact that it is an ECNL club does not make it "evil."

- ECNL does not start at 13. There is such a thing as Jr. ECNL but all that really is, up to this point, is perhaps a weekend of 3 friendlies vs. other ECNL clubs. Games are actually pretty low pressure. No standings kept. Kids are just playing. The amount of pressure put on the games will be more dependent on the clubs participating. Some will want the win regardless of the means while others probably use the matches to just play and perhaps knock off some rust.

- This was perhaps the comment that I took most exception to: "They start pushing the competitive envelope before the kids are fully developed physically and technically so they blaze through players trying to be the most competitive in the area just so they can market themselves as the front runner."

I've seen plenty of teams from non-ECNL clubs that are more than guilty of this. What you describe is not unique to the ECNL and is something that is seen in every sport and in every league. If anything, from what I have been able to tell about the ECNL, is that there is a greater emphasis on training and technical skills at the younger ages vs. other "elite level" non-ECNL clubs. The ECNL teams actually compete a lot LESS than teams at most other clubs. Over the past few years, in soccer development parlance, there has been a lot of talk about the 3:1 to 4:1 training:game ratio. Many have discounted this as "lip service" and just a bunch of gobbledygook that is used for marketing purposes. However, the ECNL teams actually do compete less. If you know anything about the USSDA you will know that those teams also compete less. With more emphasis on training as opposed to matches, the players have a better chance of acquiring the technical skills needed to compete at the highest level. The matches are merely rewards for the players for their hard work and give a means for evaluation and an avenue for the players to implement what has been taught in training.

[Unregistered]

Btdt, thanks for post 162.

The truth of the matter is that you have a notion that is false. What you fail to understand is that, quite frankly, you couldn't be further from the truth. You've created your own little arms race. Stars are not worried about what anyone else does. They know only a very tiny minority can play for them. They are not on here deluding anyone. And your reference to D1 and good D1 money after MASC and Maple D is quite deceptive. As long as you're going to use examples to spread your gospel please feel free to share the whole truth.

[Unregistered]

What ECNL folks don't want to see or hear is their hype is creating animosity within the club. If they preach ECNL the end of it all, how can they explain to the B team players that they are there for nothing and to parents that they are just paying to support the club? Soon enough the B teams will get weaker and then the financial health of those clubs will deteriorate. Inevitably the pinnacle will drop a notch once the base is gone. PDA was already stabilished but most of the clubs in our area will be follow Albertson fury. We just don't have enough pool of players to have another PDA in our area.

[Unregistered]

One of the things that is madden about this forum is so many posters only hear about one view of youth soccer. That of the ECNL crowd. Sadly there are other approaches that get completely torn apart by them because they don't want to understand their way isn't the only way. This whole A/B thing is a prime example. In their clubs going to the "B" is perceived as an insult and it often seems like anyone who is on one of those teams has no shot at all. They could not be more wrong. One of my kids was on teams in the MAPLE D and MASC levels for most of her grammar and middle school years. She climbed to a MAPLE D2 team in her freshman year and then moved up to a team that played in the Sub Regional for the remainder of her youth career. She was never on what we now call a desitination team. That one ended playing at the D1 level in college and got major money. There are other options that do work. If you follow what some other clubs like NEFC (god forbid) are doing organizationally you will see that they use their satelite programs like a farm system and actually do move players up and down. That is quite different from the A/B approach talked about here. The other evil empire, MPS, does some similar things with their SOE. Both of those clubs get soundly bashed here by the ECNL crowd essentially for their patience and their attempts to set realistic expectations with their familes. As families go through all of this they start to find out the hard way that their ways are actually way more humane and family friendly than the approach taken by the ECNL clubs. The truth is there is not a pot of gold waiting for every player at the end of the rainbow and many of the families racing down the ECNL road are just on a fools errand.

One of the problems the ECNL crowd is causing with their constant sales pitch is forcing major life decisions much too early so players and teams seem as though they are done before they have hardly started. There are so many factors that are off tilt with what they are selling it is not really funny. They start pushing the competitive envelope before the kids are fully developed physically and technically so they blaze through players trying to be the most competitive in the area just so they can market themselves as the front runner. Think about this, why in the world would anyone be lining their child up to play on a U13 ECNL team? Most those players have no idea what they will want from their life at that point and a substantial number of them won't even be playing soccer by the time any of this becomes truly relevant. The people jumping in at that point are just wasting precious money that if their player really does belong on that path they will need to pay the massive bills down the road. The problem is we are letting this crowd dictate the environment and turn it into almost an arms race.

Thank God the frantic pro-NEFC poster never attacks ECNL or Stars or tries to sell the NEFC approach. That would just result in constant long misspelled barrages of opinion or spin mascarading as generally accepted fact. Constantly posting like that would be an insult to the readers' intelligence.

Do your own research folks - there is more than one way to get "there" and the best way for your player may be different than the best way for another because of a different desired destination, different skill set - both soccerwise and academically, etc. Good luck.

Ah, the inevitable paranoid ECNL response, so out of character. Any time anyone disagrees with any part of the ECNL paradigm it so convenient to label it as frantic pro-NEFC rehtoric. Reread the post. It wasn't a pro NEFC post, it was an attack on the Stars philosophy. There is a huge difference. You assume there is only one faction who thinks what the Stars do is bad for youth sports. That is simply not the case. Bash away at NEFC all that you like. It really doesn't matter to people like me. They have their own faults. When you focus completely on them though you completely miss the point of the debate. You can be sure that others don't.

[Unregistered]

One of the things that is madden about this forum is so many posters only hear about one view of youth soccer. That of the ECNL crowd. Sadly there are other approaches that get completely torn apart by them because they don't want to understand their way isn't the only way. This whole A/B thing is a prime example. In their clubs going to the "B" is perceived as an insult and it often seems like anyone who is on one of those teams has no shot at all. They could not be more wrong. One of my kids was on teams in the MAPLE D and MASC levels for most of her grammar and middle school years. She climbed to a MAPLE D2 team in her freshman year and then moved up to a team that played in the Sub Regional for the remainder of her youth career. She was never on what we now call a desitination team. That one ended playing at the D1 level in college and got major money. There are other options that do work. If you follow what some other clubs like NEFC (god forbid) are doing organizationally you will see that they use their satelite programs like a farm system and actually do move players up and down. That is quite different from the A/B approach talked about here. The other evil empire, MPS, does some similar things with their SOE. Both of those clubs get soundly bashed here by the ECNL crowd essentially for their patience and their attempts to set realistic expectations with their familes. As families go through all of this they start to find out the hard way that their ways are actually way more humane and family friendly than the approach taken by the ECNL clubs. The truth is there is not a pot of gold waiting for every player at the end of the rainbow and many of the families racing down the ECNL road are just on a fools errand.

One of the problems the ECNL crowd is causing with their constant sales pitch is forcing major life decisions much too early so players and teams seem as though they are done before they have hardly started. There are so many factors that are off tilt with what they are selling it is not really funny. They start pushing the competitive envelope before the kids are fully developed physically and technically so they blaze through players trying to be the most competitive in the area just so they can market themselves as the front runner. Think about this, why in the world would anyone be lining their child up to play on a U13 ECNL team? Most those players have no idea what they will want from their life at that point and a substantial number of them won't even be playing soccer by the time any of this becomes truly relevant. The people jumping in at that point are just wasting precious money that if their player really does belong on that path they will need to pay the massive bills down the road. The problem is we are letting this crowd dictate the environment and turn it into almost an arms race. One reality that gets completely over looked by what these folks paint is that a player with talent and drive will get to the college level if they just stay their course and actually finish the race. What hopefully everyone will start to see is they don't really need any special environment to do that because there are more kids that don't finish the race than people really believe. There are spots in the college game but you have to work to get there. You can't just buy it.

I'm not really sure how informing people about the recruiting timeline is a pro-ECNL activity.

If you are a player with d1 aspirations, the sophomore/u16 year is the heavy showcasing year. If you aren't getting interest by the summer after u16 it is time to lower your expectations. This leaves the u17 year for an ernest search for the right d3 fit.

If you are getting interest after your spring showcases you have about 6 months to attend camps, visit schools and meet with coaches. Many d1 commits will be done by March of Juinior year, most will be done before the summer. After that, coaches will run out of roster spots and money.

This is the college timeline, you might not like it, but it is the timeline players currently need to live with.

DYOR

[Unregistered]

What ECNL folks don't want to see or hear is their hype is creating animosity within the club. If they preach ECNL the end of it all, how can they explain to the B team players that they are there for nothing and to parents that they are just paying to support the club? Soon enough the B teams will get weaker and then the financial health of those clubs will deteriorate. Inevitably the pinnacle will drop a notch once the base is gone. PDA was already stabilished but most of the clubs in our area will be follow Albertson fury. We just don't have enough pool of players to have another PDA in our area.

You are soooooo obsessed with what you allege others don't want to hear, and how you believe others are being deceived. What about you, btdt? Is it possible there are things you don't want to see or hear? No one is on the other side claiming anything. A few like myself can't resist responding to your incessant, obsessive and deeply flawed rants, but other than that no one is out there. Are you really going to sell that Stars have the only "B" teams? NEFC doesn't have a correlate? No families with NEFC are being deceived as you suggest is happening with all of your foe clubs??? Why not just tip your cap to Stars (and Scorps), wave your scholarship offer from FDU and your natiional pool letter, and be on your happy, merry way? I know, I know....if I can save even one family then my work here is worth every minute I spend on T-S....

[Unregistered]

What ECNL folks don't want to see or hear is their hype is creating animosity within the club. If they preach ECNL the end of it all, how can they explain to the B team players that they are there for nothing and to parents that they are just paying to support the club? Soon enough the B teams will get weaker and then the financial health of those clubs will deteriorate. Inevitably the pinnacle will drop a notch once the base is gone. PDA was already stabilished but most of the clubs in our area will be follow Albertson fury. We just don't have enough pool of players to have another PDA in our area.

An exception to the rule is stars athletic 15's where at u14 both teams already won state cup. Since their inception both teams followed their own path and both are strong. That was the end of it, and it is well known that some players opted to stay with athletics instead ECNL. Now going forward with having the ECNL team at 14's, players that don't make it will think twice about staying on B team when they can be on spot light somewhere else. This reality bites.

[Unregistered]

I'm not really sure how informing people about the recruiting timeline is a pro-ECNL activity.

If you are a player with d1 aspirations, the sophomore/u16 year is the heavy showcasing year. If you aren't getting interest by the summer after u16 it is time to lower your expectations. This leaves the u17 year for an ernest search for the right d3 fit.

If you are getting interest after your spring showcases you have about 6 months to attend camps, visit schools and meet with coaches. Many d1 commits will be done by March of Juinior year, most will be done before the summer. After that, coaches will run out of roster spots and money.

This is the college timeline, you might not like it, but it is the timeline players currently need to live with.

DYOR

DYOR

Your timeline is very accurate. If you have not been approached at the end of U16 then you need to come up with other plans or expect no scholarship awards.

Focus on D3 and maybe D2 but keep in contact with your D1 schools as commits can change their minds in u17 season. Folks need to realize the colleges move to the next years candidates every year and if they didn't nail down the player they move on to the next years pool.

My nephew is currently u16 and he was approached by two schools but he has no interest in them. He has moved on and is focusing on his grades so he can get into the schools he is interested in and will continue to work on soccer skills so he can play at his desired college of choice. My point, not everyone that wants you is what you want. He plays on ECNL team in Colorado.

[Unregistered]

I actually happen to agree with a lot of what you said in your post. I do feel that kids are specializing at too early of an age and I also happen to think that technical skills are not developed enough. Anyone watching most kids playing around the ages of 12 to 14 and witnesses an attacker dribbling into a defender without any attempt at using evasive skill can see this problem.

The reason that I took out a few of your points was so that I could address them.

- It is true that many families will move to a club just because it is an ECNL club. However, a lot of those kids were already at said club prior to it becoming an ECNL club. What are those kids supposed to do? Leave the club because it is an ECNL club? Many are comfortable at their club, like the club, have friends at the club, and are getting good training at the club. The fact that it is an ECNL club does not make it "evil."

- ECNL does not start at 13. There is such a thing as Jr. ECNL but all that really is, up to this point, is perhaps a weekend of 3 friendlies vs. other ECNL clubs. Games are actually pretty low pressure. No standings kept. Kids are just playing. The amount of pressure put on the games will be more dependent on the clubs participating. Some will want the win regardless of the means while others probably use the matches to just play and perhaps knock off some rust.

- This was perhaps the comment that I took most exception to: "They start pushing the competitive envelope before the kids are fully developed physically and technically so they blaze through players trying to be the most competitive in the area just so they can market themselves as the front runner."

I've seen plenty of teams from non-ECNL clubs that are more than guilty of this. What you describe is not unique to the ECNL and is something that is seen in every sport and in every league. If anything, from what I have been able to tell about the ECNL, is that there is a greater emphasis on training and technical skills at the younger ages vs. other "elite level" non-ECNL clubs. The ECNL teams actually compete a lot LESS than teams at most other clubs. Over the past few years, in soccer development parlance, there has been a lot of talk about the 3:1 to 4:1 training:game ratio. Many have discounted this as "lip service" and just a bunch of gobbledygook that is used for marketing purposes. However, the ECNL teams actually do compete less. If you know anything about the USSDA you will know that those teams also compete less. With more emphasis on training as opposed to matches, the players have a better chance of acquiring the technical skills needed to compete at the highest level. The matches are merely rewards for the players for their hard work and give a means for evaluation and an avenue for the players to implement what has been taught in training.

I am all for organic growth within a club. If you are in a situation where you are happy, your current needs are being met and there is future opportunity then you are in the right place. It doesn't matter what the club's name is or what league the team plays in. Being a satisfied consumer is all that really matters. The part I am having a problem with is this notion that you can short cut things and essentially cut to the front of the line at 12-13 years old simply by selecting one club over another. I just don't see it working that well for 99% of the players. A big part of the problem is that anyone with long term coaching experience plainly knows that huge chunks of these players will never even come close to reaching the goals they are being sold on. Not because they don't have the athletic potential but because they make life choices that will take them in other directions. This environment is crazy right now and this A/B discussion is sort of an epicenter for me. The thought that putting a 12 yo down on a B team might sgnal the end of their soccer days is nauseating yet that has actually become a visible measure in many circles. I personally think that it is important for all parents to understand that is just not normal nor healthy.

[Unregistered]

You are soooooo obsessed with what you allege others don't want to hear, and how you believe others are being deceived. What about you, btdt? Is it possible there are things you don't want to see or hear? No one is on the other side claiming anything. A few like myself can't resist responding to your incessant, obsessive and deeply flawed rants, but other than that no one is out there. Are you really going to sell that Stars have the only "B" teams? NEFC doesn't have a correlate? No families with NEFC are being deceived as you suggest is happening with all of your foe clubs??? Why not just tip your cap to Stars (and Scorps), wave your scholarship offer from FDU and your natiional pool letter, and be on your happy, merry way? I know, I know....if I can save even one family then my work here is worth every minute I spend on T-S....

I don't know BTDT but I am glad to hear that someone else shares my opinion. Another person dares to chalenge ECNL supporters. There is A and B teams in all clubs. But what doesn't exist is A team and its supporters acting like they are from another galaxy. By hyper-selling ECNL, you hurt the rest of your club. The consequence is evident. Within your club, the non-ecn players think that you and your daughter are arrogant and they can't stand folks like you. Drool and salivate all you want and convince others out there that these replies are coming from one source.

[Unregistered]

If you follow what some other clubs like NEFC (god forbid) are doing organizationally you will see that they use their satelite programs like a farm system and actually do move players up and down. That is quite different from the A/B approach talked about here. The other evil empire, MPS, does some similar things with their SOE. Both of those clubs get soundly bashed here by the ECNL crowd essentially for their patience and their attempts to set realistic expectations with their familes. As families go through all of this they start to find out the hard way that their ways are actually way more humane and family friendly than the approach taken by the ECNL clubs.

Looks pretty pro NEFC and anti ECNL to me. Also I guess I missed the NEFC bashing in the post you quoted - another spin represented as fact. It said quite clearly there was more than one way to get "there" depedning on your players needs. I guess if one doesn't agree with everything you posdt they are bashing your preferred clubs.

What was bashed was the frantic nonsensical posting of opinion pretending to be fact. I agree it is tiresome and insulting to the reader. I don't care if you feel attacked and now pretend the attack was on NEFC - I can read just fine and it wasn't an attack on NEFC. You are not NEFC.

[Unregistered]

A big part of the problem is that anyone with long term coaching experience plainly knows that huge chunks of these players will never even come close to reaching the goals they are being sold on. Not because they don't have the athletic potential but because they make life choices that will take them in other directions. This environment is crazy right now and this A/B discussion is sort of an epicenter for me. The thought that putting a 12 yo down on a B team might sgnal the end of their soccer days is nauseating yet that has actually become a visible measure in many circles. I personally think that it is important for all parents to understand that is just not normal nor healthy.

I completely agree with you but in my experience it is not always the club "selling" the goals at age 12-13, but the parents of these players. The parents are the ones who take issue with the "B" team label at age 12. For most emotionally healthy kids at age 12, they just want to play, play well, get better and play in a competitive environment. Parents need to be less hung up on labels than they are. 12 year olds may have the dream of college soccer but it's the parents that feed this dream and convince them and the rest of us that in order to get there, you have to be ECNL at age 13 or you're done. These are the same parents who will email the DOC after they get their offer to the B team and berate them for not offering their kid a spot on ECNL. And these are also the same A team parents that look at every possible situation at the U12/U13 year as either an opportunity or a rejection. Your friend got injured? Good, now go take her spot as quick as possible. It's your time to shine honey! Never mind feeling bad for your friend, never mind empathy or life lessons or supporting your teammate.

The environment by and large is a parent created cluster of dissatisfaction and angst over LABELS, not proven performance, not proven coaching, not known competition. It's nuts and runs the risk of ruining soccer for their kid altogether.

[Unregistered]

I'm not really sure how informing people about the recruiting timeline is a pro-ECNL activity.

If you are a player with d1 aspirations, the sophomore/u16 year is the heavy showcasing year. If you aren't getting interest by the summer after u16 it is time to lower your expectations. This leaves the u17 year for an ernest search for the right d3 fit.

If you are getting interest after your spring showcases you have about 6 months to attend camps, visit schools and meet with coaches. Many d1 commits will be done by March of Juinior year, most will be done before the summer. After that, coaches will run out of roster spots and money.

This is the college timeline, you might not like it, but it is the timeline players currently need to live with.

DYOR

DYOR .. There is a reality to your timeline that you are not disclosing. Presuming you actually do have true D1 talent, if you are going to get recruited you need to be standing out a year or two in advance of that signing timeline. If you are a top of the heap D1 prospect, you are already well known by the U14 year. These are the kids that have done the whole ID process and are basically on everyone's list. These players get plucked right up and set the pace. The kids that get recruited at the start of the U16 year are the ones that really started to show themselves during their freshman year on their high school teams and by sophomore year are earning all star recognition and things like that. I guess the point is that the recruiting timeline just doesn't happen automatically.

[Unregistered]

I completely agree with you but in my experience it is not always the club "selling" the goals at age 12-13, but the parents of these players. The parents are the ones who take issue with the "B" team label at age 12. For most emotionally healthy kids at age 12, they just want to play, play well, get better and play in a competitive environment. Parents need to be less hung up on labels than they are. 12 year olds may have the dream of college soccer but it's the parents that feed this dream and convince them and the rest of us that in order to get there, you have to be ECNL at age 13 or you're done. These are the same parents who will email the DOC after they get their offer to the B team and berate them for not offering their kid a spot on ECNL. And these are also the same A team parents that look at every possible situation at the U12/U13 year as either an opportunity or a rejection. Your friend got injured? Good, now go take her spot as quick as possible. It's your time to shine honey! Never mind feeling bad for your friend, never mind empathy or life lessons or supporting your teammate.

The environment by and large is a parent created cluster of dissatisfaction and angst over LABELS, not proven performance, not proven coaching, not known competition. It's nuts and runs the risk of ruining soccer for their kid altogether.

There is no doubt that there are more than few completely delusional parents out there that create the market but the clubs set the market pace. You don't need to go galavanting all over the country at 12-13 like some of these clubs are. The clubs build that expectation and the delusional parents do suck it all up. That is where everything starts to get crazy. It begins with the club. Sadly any experienced coach knows just how futile that pace really is because only a couple of players end up benefitting.