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On Tim Duncan, and how soccer (tr)eats its young.

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    On Tim Duncan, and how soccer (tr)eats its young.

    This past year, the National Basketball Association has seen the retirement of two players who will go down as among the greatest of all time: guard Kobe Bryant, who spent his entire pro career with the Los Angeles Lakers, and big man Tim Duncan, who likewise did with the San Antonio Spurs. Why am I talking about basketball players--even great ones like these two men--in a soccer forum? Read on.

    Bryant's development as a player was, in many ways, conventional. His father was a pro player; and he grew up playing the game, and was scouted at an early age (and drafted into the NBA straight out of high school). But it's Duncan who had the more interesting--and relevant--career arc.

    Rather than growing up playing hoops in the concrete jungle, like many NBA stars do, Duncan grew up in the US Virgin Islands, and dreamed of being a competitive swimmer--indeed, he was on track to make the 1992 US Olympic team. He only switched to basketball when Hurricane Hugo (in 1989) destroyed the USVI's only Olympic-sized pool, rendering him unable to train. Despite a late start at the game, Duncan developed into a standout player by his senior year, and got a scholarship at Wake Forest. Four years later, he was the consensus #1 pick in the NBA draft. Two years after that, he was an NBA champion. This past year, he retired, and is widely considered the greatest power forward to ever play the game, and is routinely mentioned in the same breath as Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. It says here that Duncan is THE best player to play the game since Michael Jordan hung up his sneakers (though guys like Lebron James or Stephen Curry, who have many productive years ahead of them, still have time to modify that assessment).

    It is also important to note WHY Duncan is so good: While a talented athlete, he was never an athletic freak like his former teammate David Robinson (whose own illustrious career ended just as Duncan's pro career was getting started), nor a behemoth like his contemporary Shaquille O'Neal (the other great big man of Duncan's generation). Instead, he was the Big Fundamental--a player who beat you with skill, up and down the court, time and time again. He was a guy who perfected the moves, the footwork, and the off-the-ball motion of basketball, and did so despite not playing the game until he was a teen-ager.

    So what does this have to do with soccer? What if, instead of being 6'11" (and thus a natural candidate for basketball), Duncan was a skinny 5'11" swimmer when his dreams were (literally) smashed by a hurricane--and instead of being encouraged to take up hoops, he was instead encouraged to take up footy instead?

    He probably would have been told--in no uncertain terms--to get lost. To go home.

    He would have been told that the train to the highest ranks of the sport left years ago, and he wasn't on it.

    He would have been told that yeah, you might be good enough to play varsity--but unless you've been paying your dues and honing your skills since grade school, it's too late for you to go any further--there's too many kids out there that are better than you and have been doing this for years. You can enjoy playing the game recreationally, but forget about being a pro or an international. That it's simply impossible for someone who starts playing at 13 to catch up to the kids who have been playing since 8 or younger.

    And maybe that's true--the competition for soccer is global, and therefore the development standards are different. OTOH, the technique and tactics of soccer aren't any more complicated than that of basketball--learning to handle a basketball well (passing, shooting, dribbling, catching) as well as learning what to do when you don't have the ball, ain't easy--and take a lot of training and a lot of practice. Yet basketball, and many of the other team sports, frequently admit older players into the game, give them a chance, and watch them bloom into stars. Soccer, on the other hand, seems to have little use for anyone who doesn't start playing the game at a young age.

    Thoughts?

    #2
    One follow-up:

    One can also ask what Duncan's prospects as a basketball player would have been had he been a 6'3" point guard rather than a 6'11" big man. "You can't teach height" has long been a sound piece of basketball coaching advice--and there are many attributes in many sports that you can't teach or train, though most are less obvious than how tall you are. You can improve strength, stamina, and skill--but you generally can't make a slow kid fast. Nor much improve on reaction times. Nor is it easy to teach the intangible skill, important to both soccer and hoops, known as "vision"; that thing that separates a Chris Paul or an Andres Iniesta from their peers.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
      One follow-up:

      One can also ask what Duncan's prospects as a basketball player would have been had he been a 6'3" point guard rather than a 6'11" big man. "You can't teach height" has long been a sound piece of basketball coaching advice--and there are many attributes in many sports that you can't teach or train, though most are less obvious than how tall you are. You can improve strength, stamina, and skill--but you generally can't make a slow kid fast. Nor much improve on reaction times. Nor is it easy to teach the intangible skill, important to both soccer and hoops, known as "vision"; that thing that separates a Chris Paul or an Andres Iniesta from their peers.
      So maybe we should choose our national team based on a combine event like the NFL. You clearly don't understand basketball, soccer, and other similar sports.

      Comment


        #4
        He was 6'11" tall. Had he been 5'11" we would be asking "Tim who?" And show me a soccer star who took up the game late in life. Hint, there are none. You don't get to 16 years old and suddenly decide to play soccer and three years later you are starring in college. Basketball and football, the lucky genetics sports.

        Comment


          #5
          To follow up:

          1) I'm not suggesting anything as asinine as an NFL-style combine. Utterly irrelevant to soccer. OTOH, the more levels of soccer have open tryouts (even if only a few positions are available through that route), the better.

          2) I used Duncan as an example precisely because he's calling card is his skill, not winning the genetic lottery. Obviously (and I noted in my followup), being a near-7-footer probably helped get his foot in the door. The NBA is full of lackluster big men who get a chance because they are tall, but can't play worth spit. But once he got a chance at Wake, Duncan not only excelled, but turned into the best big of his generation, and the best big since Kareem retired. And he did this with learned skill. (And if you think that basketball is a low-skill sport, one in which only athleticism or height matter, then you know nothing about basketball).

          3) I guess my main concern is with youth soccer (at least in the US) is that the elite youth soccer apparatus appears to stop looking for new talent after age 13 or so--after that, it seems to be about honing the previously-identified talent, and weeding it out. That (in local parlance) if you haven't been doing RTP/ODP or similar since age 10, your chances of getting into the funnel are close to nil. (Unless you can do something spectacular like win the Sueno, which will get you a ticket to the front of the line). This is problematic because many kids mature physically/emotionally mature at different ages: some ten-year-olds are as big and strong as high-school freshman, whereas some 13-year-olds still have the bodies of much younger children, or may not have the emotional maturity to handle a high-intensity training regimen--and by the time they catch up to their peers developmentally, they find the door has closed on them. (This is still an example of the "genetic lottery" in play, just in a way that isn't as obvious as something that can be measured at a combine).

          Also consider:

          http://changingthegameproject.com/he...-youth-sports/

          Comment


            #6
            To think Duncan didn't win the genetic lottery is laughable. You don't coach 6'11". Further more, he has great hand eye coordination. Some of that is developed, a lot of it is genetic. Not saying that he didn't work hard, but take a foot away from his height, and he's a 40 year old sales executive right now that only his coworkers know. The NBA and NFL have had a lot of players who didn't take up the sport until late in HS. Some NFL players never even played the game until college. There are TEs in the NFL who played one year of college football, or even none. That doesn't happen in soccer. Bad example there sparky. Don't use Tim Duncan as an example on a soccer board.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
              To think Duncan didn't win the genetic lottery is laughable. You don't coach 6'11". Further more, he has great hand eye coordination. Some of that is developed, a lot of it is genetic. Not saying that he didn't work hard, but take a foot away from his height, and he's a 40 year old sales executive right now that only his coworkers know. The NBA and NFL have had a lot of players who didn't take up the sport until late in HS. Some NFL players never even played the game until college. There are TEs in the NFL who played one year of college football, or even none. That doesn't happen in soccer. Bad example there sparky. Don't use Tim Duncan as an example on a soccer board.
              To some extent, all professional athletes win the genetic lottery. All of 'em have something that can't be coached. Even soccer--a sport in which players who aren't particularly tall or athletic can excel in--requires players to have things that can't be taught. The myth of the everyman sport--that anyone Joe can compete in (at an elite level) with enough training--remains a myth. Some sports--baseball, soccer--don't favor obvious attributes like size and strength as much as other sports do. But speed, stamina, coordination, field vision, actual vision (how well your eyes see and process information prior to cognitive processes taking hold), intelligence, and quickness--all of these are gifts. Some can be improved with training. Others, you have them or you don't.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                To some extent, all professional athletes win the genetic lottery. All of 'em have something that can't be coached. Even soccer--a sport in which players who aren't particularly tall or athletic can excel in--requires players to have things that can't be taught. The myth of the everyman sport--that anyone Joe can compete in (at an elite level) with enough training--remains a myth. Some sports--baseball, soccer--don't favor obvious attributes like size and strength as much as other sports do. But speed, stamina, coordination, field vision, actual vision (how well your eyes see and process information prior to cognitive processes taking hold), intelligence, and quickness--all of these are gifts. Some can be improved with training. Others, you have them or you don't.
                .
                Yeah. Soccer is the spittoon of American Sports....where, when your chaw is spent in other sports, you can hurl your black saliva of athletic mediocrity and leftover into a low sitting metal catch basin. Go play a real sport. Soccer sucks.

                Comment

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