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**Unregistered** · 06-20-2012, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

Why is it all the premier/club teams tell you its not about winning its about player development? The battle cry for losing teams! That is BS its about winning, read any post on this thread or talk to almost any parent! Winning is how we measure success! My kid will be leaving her current club, she has been offered positions on the three teams she tried out for on the first day of tryouts! She will be playing for the first coach that tells me winning is important! Why the hell would we as parents pay all the money to lose! If the kids aren't getting better they will LOSE! State Cup, regionals, tournaments, ect........it IS about winning!!!! It is even important to win in a low level maple league, if you are playing then you want to win!

Depends on how old the player is. Up until U13/U14 the more athletic team/players will win most games regardless of their skill set. The faster more aggressive player has a huge advantage early on. I think that all coaches and teams are trying to win, but how they win will make a difference when the kid turns 14. There are many examples of teams that were power houses at U10-U12, but they won all their games by just being faster or stronger. By the time you get to U14/U15, the slow kids are all gone. It's far more likely that your little speedy forward will get manhandled by a nearly as fast bigger defender.

My daughters team played against an MPS team at U13 and just destroyed them but it was obvious that the MPS team was being trained to play a better game. More ball movement, more possession, smarter attacks. They could not actually do what they were attempting, so they lost many games at that age. A few years later and they are now a formidable force and we can no longer beat them.

So what I'm saying is that I wish that my daughters team had payed less attention to winning at U12 (although it would have been painful at the time) and more about what they needed to know at U14.

**Unregistered** · 06-20-2012, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

Depends on how old the player is. Up until U13/U14 the more athletic team/players will win most games regardless of their skill set. The faster more aggressive player has a huge advantage early on. I think that all coaches and teams are trying to win, but how they win will make a difference when the kid turns 14. There are many examples of teams that were power houses at U10-U12, but they won all their games by just being faster or stronger. By the time you get to U14/U15, the slow kids are all gone. It's far more likely that your little speedy forward will get manhandled by a nearly as fast bigger defender.

My daughters team played against an MPS team at U13 and just destroyed them but it was obvious that the MPS team was being trained to play a better game. More ball movement, more possession, smarter attacks. They could not actually do what they were attempting, so they lost many games at that age. A few years later and they are now a formidable force and we can no longer beat them.

So what I'm saying is that I wish that my daughters team had payed less attention to winning at U12 (although it would have been painful at the time) and more about what they needed to know at U14.

I totally agree with this. My daughters team is a small in size U11 team but where they lack in size and power right now they make up for in passing skill and possession and endurance. However, they will often play a bigger and more powerful team and give up a few of those long range boots into the net and lose the game that way. Frankly, I'd much rather watch my daughter develop the way she has been taught because when they are a bit older they will be much more advanced as soccer players and as a team compared to those giant kick, run and shoot teams she is seeing now. JMO of course.

**Unregistered** · 06-20-2012, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

Why is it all the premier/club teams tell you its not about winning its about player development? The battle cry for losing teams! That is BS its about winning, read any post on this thread or talk to almost any parent! Winning is how we measure success! My kid will be leaving her current club, she has been offered positions on the three teams she tried out for on the first day of tryouts! She will be playing for the first coach that tells me winning is important! Why the hell would we as parents pay all the money to lose! If the kids aren't getting better they will LOSE! State Cup, regionals, tournaments, ect........it IS about winning!!!! It is even important to win in a low level maple league, if you are playing then you want to win!

I like your post because it is honest. I will tell you that there are coaches and parents that do get the idea of development and how it relates to winning .
My experience is that the parents that get it are ones that have played a sport at a high level and can go back an remember how they got better and how they themselves acquired skill and how it related to their team winning .
At the younger ages development is key . At older ages 15 +winning does become a more important. Why? because teams play longer ,technique, discipline breaks down due to fitness and other factors. Teams that are technically , tactical and fit usually win games .

I will give you examples on how winning doesn't directly translate to better players or better team.

Coach (A) u12 or lower has a team of young players who are very skilled plays them up a level or age group. They don't win many games against faster , bigger teams.
Coach is a good coach so he or she writes down things that he or she sees that the teams need to work on . The coach trains the team to fix these flaws for the next time they play. The players are working on things that they would not normally work on when they play weaker teams.

Coach B U10 or lower- Trains player like football many set and rehearsed plays , Everything from having the fastest player take ball to flanks and cross the ball, Send ball into the box as much as possible , The more balls in the box the more chances one has to score . Since the teams knows the balls are going into the box they have an advantage over the other team . This doesn't lead to development for any player on the team. You are learning two things at most and spending more time on how we are going to win not how we are going to develop ...for how many session???

Player never develop the short pass. balls in the air are dangerous for both teams, No one develops 1v1 skills etc

If your daughter is the best player on the team because of her technical and tactical ability the you should have her with the best competition possible but If a coach says that winning is the most important than it not really coaching but managing . Mangers manage talent coaches develop it.

How many managers in industry develop their employees they usually sign of on some training plan and have someone else do it

**Unregistered** · 06-20-2012, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

Why is it all the premier/club teams tell you its not about winning its about player development? The battle cry for losing teams! That is BS its about winning, read any post on this thread or talk to almost any parent! Winning is how we measure success! My kid will be leaving her current club, she has been offered positions on the three teams she tried out for on the first day of tryouts! She will be playing for the first coach that tells me winning is important! Why the hell would we as parents pay all the money to lose! If the kids aren't getting better they will LOSE! State Cup, regionals, tournaments, ect........it IS about winning!!!! It is even important to win in a low level maple league, if you are playing then you want to win!

The question really is, at what age do you want to win? As mentioned above, if you want to win at U12, just get some early-bloomer, big kids and run over the competition. It is unlikely that those kids will still be dominant or even competitive by the time they reach U17 (because it takes a lot of patience and work away from practice to get really good at soccer). Depends on what you or your kid are looking for -- if your kid dreams of playing in college you need one kind of experience but if your 12 year old is looking for a dresser full of trophies and medals, then you want another.

Just beware that teams that value winning over development are always looking to recruit (rather than train) better players and will be happy to replace your child with someone better in a heartbeat. What goes around, comes around.

**Unregistered** · 06-20-2012, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

Why is it all the premier/club teams tell you its not about winning its about player development? The battle cry for losing teams! That is BS its about winning, read any post on this thread or talk to almost any parent! Winning is how we measure success! My kid will be leaving her current club, she has been offered positions on the three teams she tried out for on the first day of tryouts! She will be playing for the first coach that tells me winning is important! Why the hell would we as parents pay all the money to lose! If the kids aren't getting better they will LOSE! State Cup, regionals, tournaments, ect........it IS about winning!!!! It is even important to win in a low level maple league, if you are playing then you want to win!

I agree...my kid plays for a wining team. It's about team develop, and getting the right players.

**Unregistered** · 06-20-2012, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

The question really is, at what age do you want to win? As mentioned above, if you want to win at U12, just get some early-bloomer, big kids and run over the competition. It is unlikely that those kids will still be dominant or even competitive by the time they reach U17 (because it takes a lot of patience and work away from practice to get really good at soccer). Depends on what you or your kid are looking for -- if your kid dreams of playing in college you need one kind of experience but if your 12 year old is looking for a dresser full of trophies and medals, then you want another.

Just beware that teams that value winning over development are always looking to recruit (rather than train) better players and will be happy to replace your child with someone better in a heartbeat. What goes around, comes around.

Just about all these premiere teams recruit. The ones that don't are the ones that will be out of business real soon....trust me I quite a few emails to prove it....

**Unregistered** · 06-20-2012, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

Why is it all the premier/club teams tell you its not about winning its about player development? The battle cry for losing teams! That is BS its about winning, read any post on this thread or talk to almost any parent! Winning is how we measure success! My kid will be leaving her current club, she has been offered positions on the three teams she tried out for on the first day of tryouts! She will be playing for the first coach that tells me winning is important! Why the hell would we as parents pay all the money to lose! If the kids aren't getting better they will LOSE! State Cup, regionals, tournaments, ect........it IS about winning!!!! It is even important to win in a low level maple league, if you are playing then you want to win!

Winning equals bigger turnout at tryouts which equals more talent to pick from. don't have to go to Bayside tryouts to know they will have the best tryout turnout. I believe they do their best to train all their players at practice. When that training equals wins and regional cup victories they reap the benefits at tryouts.

The above is not meant to pick on Bayside, just using them as an example. When the RI Rays were winning they also had the tryout numbers and if some other club will produce victories in the future then it will be their turn to reap the rewards.

good players need good teams to play for because those good teams can enter leagues and tournaments to challenge their players as it's what they need. Who wants to play for a Maple D2 or D3 team when they can face better competition in D1 or NEP. Can't blame premier clubs for wanting to win.

In my opinion the best clubs train all the players on the team well and then those players compete for playing time to help produce victories - it's why it is premier and it's not for every kid.

**Unregistered** · 06-20-2012, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

Winning equals bigger turnout at tryouts which equals more talent to pick from. don't have to go to Bayside tryouts to know they will have the best tryout turnout. I believe they do their best to train all their players at practice. When that training equals wins and regional cup victories they reap the benefits at tryouts.

The above is not meant to pick on Bayside, just using them as an example. When the RI Rays were winning they also had the tryout numbers and if some other club will produce victories in the future then it will be their turn to reap the rewards.

good players need good teams to play for because those good teams can enter leagues and tournaments to challenge their players as it's what they need. Who wants to play for a Maple D2 or D3 team when they can face better competition in D1 or NEP. Can't blame premier clubs for wanting to win.

In my opinion the best clubs train all the players on the team well and then those players compete for playing time to help produce victories - it's why it is premier and it's not for every kid.

This argument will be quickly proved wrong or right in about 4 years on the boys side.Winning over development.

Now that the Revs have a pre academy you should be able to see who is winning and who is developing. If you are lucky enough to go to one of the academy try outs please do . You will see the kids in a real tryout enironment . You will see who can really score who can move the ball , who has soccer intelligence etc.It that obvious.

I know what your going to say my son or daugther is not looking to play professional l but that doesn't matter becuase you can't fake individual skill. Sometimes I ask my players who are the best players in their age group . It amazing how kids can be so objective. They don't have this hang up like parents do about what club is better . They know were their skill stands compare to others.

**Unregistered** · 06-20-2012, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

This argument will be quickly proved wrong or right in about 4 years on the boys side.Winning over development.

Now that the Revs have a pre academy you should be able to see who is winning and who is developing. If you are lucky enough to go to one of the academy try outs please do . You will see the kids in a real tryout enironment . You will see who can really score who can move the ball , who has soccer intelligence etc.It that obvious.

I know what your going to say my son or daugther is not looking to play professional l but that doesn't matter becuase you can't fake individual skill. Sometimes I ask my players who are the best players in their age group . It amazing how kids can be so objective. They don't have this hang up like parents do about what club is better . They know were their skill stands compare to others.

But that has little to do with the topic of winning in this thread. Winning in a players mind, winning in a parents mind and winning as a premier team/club are 3 different things. The OP of the thread wanted to discuss why premier clubs talk about development when many of them really care about winning. Winning in a premier sense unfortunately is many times due to the business of it all. Winning = status = more players = more status = more money etc...

As for what you discussed I agree the kids know. Development = getting the most out of the skills and desire a player has. No amount of development/training is going to achieve great success without the player having superior qualities. As for your statement of kids moving the ball around, yes it is a beautiful thing to see along with the sports (non professional) innocence of an amateur kid.

**Unregistered** · 06-21-2012, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by Unregistered View Post

But that has little to do with the topic of winning in this thread. Winning in a players mind, winning in a parents mind and winning as a premier team/club are 3 different things. The OP of the thread wanted to discuss why premier clubs talk about development when many of them really care about winning. Winning in a premier sense unfortunately is many times due to the business of it all. Winning = status = more players = more status = more money etc...

As for what you discussed I agree the kids know. Development = getting the most out of the skills and desire a player has. No amount of development/training is going to achieve great success without the player having superior qualities. As for your statement of kids moving the ball around, yes it is a beautiful thing to see along with the sports (non professional) innocence of an amateur kid.

I like your formula. In order for a club to maintain their business they need to win because that translates to more customers willing to buy your product.