State Cup Brackets

[Unregistered]

It's not as simple as exclusion from State Cup. Here's how I understand it:

You can create a team with players from 4 towns, and go play in MAPLE.

Soccer-RI will not recognize the team. If it's a town team, you have to obey by the 3 town rule. If it's a premier club team, Soccer-RI won't recognize it because it's not one of the approved clubs.

So what you do is you register the team in MYSA and you have to get a release for every RI player to play in Massachusetts. Soccer-RI will only release five players, but you can get a waiver from Soccer-RI to create the team. The waiver states that your team won't play in the RI state Cup.

This has been done before, but someone with more experience will have to explain better.

To play in the State Cup all you have to do is have every player registered and properly affiliated with US Youth Soccer, play in an an approved league, have all your players of the given age group, and have more than half your team from the State Cup competition you enter.

You're mixing up some of the rules....

Any SRI town association can form a team U10-U14 with kids from as many towns as they want and go play in MASC or MAPLE. I believe the 3-town rule applies only to SuperLiga.

I do not believe that SRI would block such a "4-town" team from playing in state cup, so long as the association it comes from is a SRI member. I have heard it both ways on this forum, but I have yet to hear specific evidence that such a team CANNOT play state cup. If this is so, then that's a ridiculous rule and should be challenged legally...or at least at the USYSA level.

If you are a club team NOT registered with SRI (with Mass YSA) but have 50% or more of your players residents of RI, you CANNOT play RI State Cup. (This is the so-called "NE Wave" rule. Of course, if you have friends within the SRI board, you can be hooked-up with a quasi - defunct club, i.e. Bayside United/RI Rays girls teams, and play. But you have to know someone....because this is RI.)

Keep complaining on T-S.com....keep posting....nothing is going to change unless you all put your energies into actually running for board positions and voting out the current administration instead of pounding your keyboards.

[Unregistered]

Re draw due to seeding mistake

sri rules state - "for brackets with 5 or more teams, winners and finalists from the 2011 ri champions will be seeded so they do not play each other in the first round of games".

U15 boys group has bayside (2011 champion) and bruno (2011 finalist) in the same three team preliminary round group. Assuming sri realizes what has happened (or someone brings this to their attention) will they completely re-draw the 4 remaining teams or will they simply switch bayside or bruno with a team from the other group...way to go sri!!

sri will have a re-draw tonight for the divisions that are effected by the above.

[Unregistered]

From SRI Policy Manual

"The competitions shall be open to all teams composed of properly registered and
rostered youth players (as defined by the rules of USYSA and SRI) and coaches provided such
team is in good standing with SRI and is in compliance with the special eligibility rules
governing the RI Championships competitions."

The special rules are

1) The team may not be an ODP Team.
2) The team must compete in at least a four-team sanctioned league during the current
seasonal year.
3) The team must have at least fifty percent of its players registered with SRI.
4) The team must not allow more than eighteen (18) or less than nine (9) players on its
roster at any given time during the seasonal year.
5) The team may not RELEASE, voluntarily or involuntarily, any player from its roster
UNLESS a written request, stating the reasons why this action has been requested, has
been made to and approved by SRI. A team may release involuntarily a player from its
roster ONLY if the player is unable to play for one of the following reasons. (a) The
player has violated USSF, USYSA, or SRI rules. (b) The player has moved beyond a
reasonable travel distance. (c) The player is injured in such a manner that the player
will not be able to participate for the remainder of the season. (d) A player is deceased.
No Premier player may be released to another premier team for RI Championships play
after March 1 unless the team is not competing in RI Championships.
6) The team may compete in only the RI Championships competition during the seasonal
year.
7) A player may play for only one team in the US Youth Soccer National Championships
competition in any seasonal year.
8) A player who has been suspended may play after the player’s term of suspension has
expired.
9) A non-SRI member team may not have on its roster more than five (5) SRI registered
players who have been granted permission to play out of state.

Note - 9 is a bit silly given the 50% SRI player rule..if you can only have 5 SRI players, then the max you can roster is 10..

Now,

2402.5 Team Roster Limits. Each and every team may not have more than three (3)
communities;
Each team is independent of all other teams in that association.
Limits apply to U14 teams and below. Limits do NOT apply to U15 teams and above.
Limits do not apply to Recreational, Indoor, Tournament, and SRI Member Premier Club
teams or to any nonstandard soccer.

So based on the rule -- if you are not recognized as a "premier club team" (note this is a change that somehow SRI sneaked in during the last revision and the minutes have not been posted -- and you are a SRI member association, you are limited to 3 towns at U14 and below, ** regardless ** of the qualifying competitive league (so it's not just SuperLiga)..

I think I'm like others here in seeing if any current club member can provide an example post Sep 2011 that has a town team with more than 4 towns as defined by SRI.

Only way it seems around is for town to create a "premier wing" that is spun off..but that would require (1) approval from SRI -- good luck with that! and (2) the ability to field at least 4 teams

Nope..SRI likes it that S/C is for premier clubs..and the occasion town program (mainly SC with a exception here and there) that can field a competitive team (good luck after U12 SS..will be interesting to see how Warwick and Portsmouth do in U14G)..

Now in theory, any town program *could* enter S/C -- but as pointed out..who is going to spend $600 to get beat?

[Unregistered]

From SRI Policy Manual

"The competitions shall be open to all teams composed of properly registered and
rostered youth players (as defined by the rules of USYSA and SRI) and coaches provided such
team is in good standing with SRI and is in compliance with the special eligibility rules
governing the RI Championships competitions."

The special rules are

1) The team may not be an ODP Team.
2) The team must compete in at least a four-team sanctioned league during the current
seasonal year.
3) The team must have at least fifty percent of its players registered with SRI.
4) The team must not allow more than eighteen (18) or less than nine (9) players on its
roster at any given time during the seasonal year.
5) The team may not RELEASE, voluntarily or involuntarily, any player from its roster
UNLESS a written request, stating the reasons why this action has been requested, has
been made to and approved by SRI. A team may release involuntarily a player from its
roster ONLY if the player is unable to play for one of the following reasons. (a) The
player has violated USSF, USYSA, or SRI rules. (b) The player has moved beyond a
reasonable travel distance. (c) The player is injured in such a manner that the player
will not be able to participate for the remainder of the season. (d) A player is deceased.
No Premier player may be released to another premier team for RI Championships play
after March 1 unless the team is not competing in RI Championships.
6) The team may compete in only the RI Championships competition during the seasonal
year.
7) A player may play for only one team in the US Youth Soccer National Championships
competition in any seasonal year.
8) A player who has been suspended may play after the player’s term of suspension has
expired.
9) A non-SRI member team may not have on its roster more than five (5) SRI registered
players who have been granted permission to play out of state.

Note - 9 is a bit silly given the 50% SRI player rule..if you can only have 5 SRI players, then the max you can roster is 10..

Now,

2402.5 Team Roster Limits. Each and every team may not have more than three (3)
communities;
Each team is independent of all other teams in that association.
Limits apply to U14 teams and below. Limits do NOT apply to U15 teams and above.
Limits do not apply to Recreational, Indoor, Tournament, and SRI Member Premier Club
teams or to any nonstandard soccer.

So based on the rule -- if you are not recognized as a "premier club team" (note this is a change that somehow SRI sneaked in during the last revision and the minutes have not been posted -- and you are a SRI member association, you are limited to 3 towns at U14 and below, ** regardless ** of the qualifying competitive league (so it's not just SuperLiga)..

I think I'm like others here in seeing if any current club member can provide an example post Sep 2011 that has a town team with more than 4 towns as defined by SRI.

Only way it seems around is for town to create a "premier wing" that is spun off..but that would require (1) approval from SRI -- good luck with that! and (2) the ability to field at least 4 teams

Nope..SRI likes it that S/C is for premier clubs..and the occasion town program (mainly SC with a exception here and there) that can field a competitive team (good luck after U12 SS..will be interesting to see how Warwick and Portsmouth do in U14G)..

Now in theory, any town program *could* enter S/C -- but as pointed out..who is going to spend $600 to get beat?

If any town association or non-SRI club team with 50 pct RI residents was ever really serious about entering state cup, all they would have to do is appeal to USYSA or take them to court and the SRI rules would get overturned. They are not in the spirit of USYSA's rules. They don't hold water. But this thread is all theory-based. How many times has this issue actually come up in real life?

[Unregistered]

"I'm pretty sure the three town rule exists to protect the local programs, both so they can survive and compete.

Local programs depend on membership, and they are only going to be as strong as their membership. They are run by volunteers, who dedicate their time. Players are therefore restricted to play for the town program they live in. For better or for worse, without these restrictions, some local programs may struggle, and that would close people not willing to travel to a bordering town out of the sport."

Such a RI mentality! You'll pay thousands of dollars to drive 45 min to an hour for premier, but won't drive 15 minutes and save hundreds of dollars for a solid town program?

Again, it is ** impossible to prove a negative ** but I'll throw back the same logic -- if it's so great at promoting local programs, why doesn't other rural/small states adopt the same rule?

What we do know is even WITH the rule, that some town programs are terrible and losing members; yet we punish those parents and their kids simply because of geography.

We also know the rule forces town clubs in some cases to put marginal kids who would be better served in a spring rec or "rhody" level environment into a town travel team -- and now the better (not elite, but committed) kids get pushed into premier so you have a proliferation of marginal "premier" teams.

What we do know is Superliga makes money by having more teams..roster restrictions promote more teams..and SRI makes more money by having more associations..

I have been at the SRI meetings when this rule comes up and you always here that it's for the small town programs...but you never hear a peep, nor do you see **ANYTHING** on SRI website on how to build strong rec programs..even though we all know that the health of an association is in its recreation program.

It's a joke -- it's all about the few protecting their interests..and the vast majority of kids are merely $$ to feed the beast..

[Unregistered]

Again, it is ** impossible to prove a negative ** but I'll throw back the same logic -- if it's so great at promoting local programs, why doesn't other rural/small states adopt the same rule?

What we do know is even WITH the rule, that some town programs are terrible and losing members; yet we punish those parents and their kids simply because of geography.

We also know the rule forces town clubs in some cases to put marginal kids who would be better served in a spring rec or "rhody" level environment into a town travel team -- and now the better (not elite, but committed) kids get pushed into premier so you have a proliferation of marginal "premier" teams.

What we do know is Superliga makes money by having more teams..roster restrictions promote more teams..and SRI makes more money by having more associatioms...

There's no question that the rule protects adult turf as well.

But it's not as rhody as you think. Mass has similar rules. You can't live in one town and play for another in most Towns without a waiver, or unless the home town can't field a team. The Boston league had a similar rule to the there town rule.

The difference is that ANYONE can start a premier club. So anyone who starts a premier club can play in MALE or MASC, then enter state cup.

I think you'll find similar rules in most states.

[Unregistered]

and re

I actually wrote the USYSA general counsel on why they didn't give the SRI rule more scrutiny or why they allowed SRI to drop the conflict of interest rule in the state by-law that exists in the national one.

He basically said equal opportunity meant a kid had the chance to play, not that all teams had to be treated equally in the process and basically if there was a process to change the board, then the member clubs should vote in different board members..I told him he obviously was not from around here..

You are right in that essentially it is going to take a club to put together a team and threaten SRI with the IRS (since SRI claims no conflict of interest) -- might be easier than dealing with USYSA (or maybe given RI has had its state association slapped down by USYSA that might be sufficient to threaten).

A simple compromise would be to expand the exemption to what is now SuperLiga anchor and make that a separate league (OD could still run it)-- rename classic gold to anchor and keep SL as anchor/classic/rhody. Make the separate league a bit more ""Mapleish" by capping the number of teams and relegating the bottom teams so clubs can't just put teams in without some quality checks and balances.

[Unregistered]

I actually wrote the USYSA general counsel on why they didn't give the SRI rule more scrutiny or why they allowed SRI to drop the conflict of interest rule in the state by-law that exists in the national one.

He basically said equal opportunity meant a kid had the chance to play, not that all teams had to be treated equally in the process and basically if there was a process to change the board, then the member clubs should vote in different board members..I told him he obviously was not from around here..

You are right in that essentially it is going to take a club to put together a team and threaten SRI with the IRS (since SRI claims no conflict of interest) -- might be easier than dealing with USYSA (or maybe given RI has had its state association slapped down by USYSA that might be sufficient to threaten).

A simple compromise would be to expand the exemption to what is now SuperLiga anchor and make that a separate league (OD could still run it)-- rename classic gold to anchor and keep SL as anchor/classic/rhody. Make the separate league a bit more ""Mapleish" by capping the number of teams and relegating the bottom teams so clubs can't just put teams in without some quality checks and balances.

The irony of this entire topic is that it's much of the same BS that the old RIYSA was doing -restricting competitive opportunities - before USYSA finally stepped in a stripped RIYSA of their authority as the state youth soccer organization back in 2000. No surprise as some of those same people are still in charge.

[Unregistered]

SRI rules state - "For brackets with 5 or more teams, winners and finalists from the 2011 RI Champions will be seeded so they do not play each other in the first round of games".

U15 boys group has Bayside (2011 Champion) and Bruno (2011 Finalist) in the same three team preliminary round group. Assuming SRI realizes what has happened (or someone brings this to their attention) will they completely re-draw the 4 remaining teams or will they simply switch Bayside or Bruno with a team from the other group...way to go SRI!!

Conceding the championship already, just a sign that Bruno's goal is second place.

[JBsoccer]

Conceding the championship already, just a sign that Bruno's goal is second place.

That U15 boys Bayside team is just great. They are a joy to watch, tremendously talented at every position. Obviously, they are the favorites to repeat as state cup champs for the 4th time in a row.

But they can be (and have been) beaten! That's what's great about the state cup tournament - just being in it and competing for the most prestigious tournament title in RI. With single elimination in the semi-final and final rounds, anything can happen! One game....Rams beat them last year, Bruno played them tough...anything can happen in one game.

In this bracket, you've got teams playing in SuperLiga (SC), NEP (Bayside and Bruno) and R1 Northeast League (Bayside), Maple D3 (RISC and Tidal Wave), Maple D2 (Rams)....so for most of these teams it's the only time they have a chance to play their in-state rival clubs.

Whether your team wins it or not is immaterial -- TRYING to win it and seeing how you stack up against the other teams in your home state is the most important element of state cup. Participate, play hard, compete and then cheer for whoever the RI champs are at Regionals. It's too bad more teams don't see it this way and sign up to play.

It's not perfect...but I love state cup anyway.

JB

[Unregistered]

That U15 boys Bayside team is just great. They are a joy to watch, tremendously talented at every position. Obviously, they are the favorites to repeat as state cup champs for the 4th time in a row.

But they can be (and have been) beaten! That's what's great about the state cup tournament - just being in it and competing for the most prestigious tournament title in RI. With single elimination in the semi-final and final rounds, anything can happen! One game....Rams beat them last year, Bruno played them tough...anything can happen in one game.

In this bracket, you've got teams playing in SuperLiga (SC), NEP (Bayside and Bruno) and R1 Northeast League (Bayside), Maple D3 (RISC and Tidal Wave), Maple D2 (Rams)....so for most of these teams it's the only time they have a chance to play their in-state rival clubs.

Whether your team wins it or not is immaterial -- TRYING to win it and seeing how you stack up against the other teams in your home state is the most important element of state cup. Participate, play hard, compete and then cheer for whoever the RI champs are at Regionals. It's too bad more teams don't see it this way and sign up to play.

It's not perfect...but I love state cup anyway.

JB

Agree JB, I had asked a few previous questions about the rules. The answers taught me that quite a few teams are excluded without jumping through hoops or finding away around loopholes. I like State Cup too, but I think it could be better with more teams. The bracket you described is a great bracket, no reason why they all should not be like that. There are so many small brackets in this years draw. I am of the school that every team should have a shot, the more teams the better. It is more fun for the kids to play multiple teams along the way, than to play 1-3 and then go to regionals.

I know you have mentioned the similarity to LL World Series. I know the LL rules are vastly different from SRI. However wouldn't it be nice if the concept and organization was similar? LL World Series has that Hometown/Home State Pride, every team welcome that I think this tournament lacks.

Overall, I have to say. This thread has been the nicest I have seen on this board (I hope I didn't jinx it) I think every contribution has come from a place where if people agree or disagree, all parents would like to see this tournament successful for the kids. Appreciate that!

[JBsoccer]

Agree JB, I had asked a few previous questions about the rules. The answers taught me that quite a few teams are excluded without jumping through hoops or finding away around loopholes. I like State Cup too, but I think it could be better with more teams. The bracket you described is a great bracket, no reason why they all should not be like that. There are so many small brackets in this years draw. I am of the school that every team should have a shot, the more teams the better. It is more fun for the kids to play multiple teams along the way, than to play 1-3 and then go to regionals.

I know you have mentioned the similarity to LL World Series. I know the LL rules are vastly different from SRI. However wouldn't it be nice if the concept and organization was similar? LL World Series has that Hometown/Home State Pride, every team welcome that I think this tournament lacks.

Overall, I have to say. This thread has been the nicest I have seen on this board (I hope I didn't jinx it) I think every contribution has come from a place where if people agree or disagree, all parents would like to see this tournament successful for the kids. Appreciate that!

My comparison of state cup to LL World Series play is that it's the closest thing youth soccer has to the LLWS. But you are completely correct in that there are huge differences - most obviously the whole "community team" concept versus premier team.

I find it odd that USYSA and the state authorities don't market the tournament better. I mean, USYSA appeals to both genders, has a greater number of age groups and has WAY MORE kids and their families participating in USYSA soccer than play LL baseball. Why not sell the thing to ESPN? All you get now are 2 minutes of highlights a month later on Fox Soccer on the USYSA show.

Here in RI...why not contact Cox to do a special on the state cup final games, or maybe even televise a game or 2, or 3? Maybe NESN/MSG could do something from Regionals, like they do in Bristol, CT with LL? Why doesn't the Projo cover the state cup games? Is anyone even turning scores into them? You can't just sit back and hope that the local media is going to wake up and cover your sport - you have to market it!

I'm not going to get into why this stuff doesn't happen...that topic was beaten to death 2 years ago on this board and continues to be - indirectly - at present. But these are still good ideas, and very do-able if youth baseball is any example.

As always....my 2 cents,

JB

[Unregistered]

cox

If they are looking to put the best soccer in RI on, they should just show a bayside intersquad scrimmage!

[Unregistered]

that topic was beaten to death 2 years ago on this board and continues to be - indirectly

JB - Good ideas; however, you know as well as I do that it's basically the same reason why there is no state soccer complex..no matter what you say on paper or in meetings, where you put your resources and efforts speak more directly about your true priorities..

But other reason is that little league generates town/district interest and rivalries (just look at the turnout for middle school soccer championships of how those factors can play in soccer).. it's exciting that the town of Cumberland's team might win the regionals and go to nationals..it's a ho-hum if Bayside with RI and MA kids from half a dozen towns might win at regionals..

It's way too long of a discussion why the youth soccer and baseball models are different, but the bottom line is the districts have great power and the regional/town focus creates different dynamics than an unimaginative state organization..and the "higher level" baseball only starts to come into play after LL age groups (although that is changing a bit)..

We have the reverse in soccer..weak regions (commissioners have no votes they are mainly just a filter)..more power in the "higher level" community..and a state set-up that centralizes power in a few, but cares more about numbers than quality of programs so town programs are thrown the supposed "life jacket" of the 3 town rule and then left to swim in the deep end..

[JBsoccer]

that topic was beaten to death 2 years ago on this board and continues to be - indirectly

JB - Good ideas; however, you know as well as I do that it's basically the same reason why there is no state soccer complex..no matter what you say on paper or in meetings, where you put your resources and efforts speak more directly about your true priorities..

But other reason is that little league generates town/district interest and rivalries (just look at the turnout for middle school soccer championships of how those factors can play in soccer).. it's exciting that the town of Cumberland's team might win the regionals and go to nationals..it's a ho-hum if Bayside with RI and MA kids from half a dozen towns might win at regionals..

It's way too long of a discussion why the youth soccer and baseball models are different, but the bottom line is the districts have great power and the regional/town focus creates different dynamics than an unimaginative state organization..and the "higher level" baseball only starts to come into play after LL age groups (although that is changing a bit)..

We have the reverse in soccer..weak regions (commissioners have no votes they are mainly just a filter)..more power in the "higher level" community..and a state set-up that centralizes power in a few, but cares more about numbers than quality of programs so town programs are thrown the supposed "life jacket" of the 3 town rule and then left to swim in the deep end..

All good stuff. It's a very interesting topic to me - how different youth sports are structured and their overall impact on our American culture.

I find it interesting how Little League Baseball grabs the nations' attention during 10 days in August. Yet, Little League all-stars is widely viewed as the weakest level of 12U competitive youth baseball played during the summer (meaning: AAU, USSSA, AABC, PONY and other baseball org's all play at a higher level due to no residency restrictions when forming their national tournament teams).

The closest thing you get to that level of attention in youth soccer (or basketball or football, for that matter) is during school playoff tournaments in the fall. Again, school soccer is widely acknowledged to be a somewhat weaker brand of soccer than club soccer, yet fan attendance and media attention is much greater.

Yes, it all comes down to community spirit and pride. I would think that youth soccer is ripe to capture some of this community spirit - especially when you consider there are now loads more kids playing soccer than LL baseball in the USA.

My own opinion is that the youth soccer-folks are poor marketers of their sport. Does some of it have to do with the fact that Little League Baseball is largely non-profit while youth soccer is largely pay-to-play? Does it matter? I don't know, really.

All I know is that, every few weeks on a Friday....when my work is done and I have some time to kill, I enjoy the discussions like this on this forum. It's fun to kick these ideas around (no pun intended).

JB