End of ECNL vs GA Debate

[Guest]

More sweeping generalizations here. The big NCAA programs like who?

It is my opinion, and that's all it can be, but every single one of them. I have legitimately tried to watch these games since theyre all on ESPN+. Knowing how much other football is available it makes it hard to get through even just a half. Its the nature of the women's game, which is fed by our youth leagues where physicality and sprint speed are valued above iq, technical ability and vision. Doesnt mean i dont hope for my kid to play at that level, but we recognize that as the game goes, it aint pretty.

[Guest]

A perfect example of not having proper technique is when the backs/ Defenders have been given an angle and some space- although narrow, to pass quickly and accurately to move the ball forward-and they are unable to pass it through the channel given. They don't have the skillset to pass it accurately, They lose the ball in the back with errand passes or after a while, they lose confidence and hold the ball too long creating turnovers. This can lead to disgruntled defenders shifting blame to the midfielders. They complain that they (the midfielders) are not available enough or are not moving enough to create wider openings so that they may pass more accurately. In high-level fast-moving competition those angles and openings can be narrow and close down quickly, so refining passing skills is a must for a successful "simple" possession game out of the back. What tends to happen is that the defenders then decide to hold the ball too long while trying to take space. The athletic defenders can be successful at times but eventually, they lose the ball too much or take too much time to get the ball up the field. A simple game becomes a not so simple game with possession being lost.

Soccer Nut

This scenario has nothing to do with technique.Both Pep and Klopp have said repeatedly that tiki-taka is over rated. They have no issue with the defenders playing long ball over the top. In your scenario if a team is playing a high pressure defense such as a 3-5-2 they are hoping the center backs will be looking to pass to midfielders in the middle channel and will even let that first ball go through and have 2 players immediately there to steal and make a play on goal, C’mon SN, you know better to think refining passing skills vs. an equally competitive team is asking a lot. Building out of the back is the perfect trap for those teams who refuse to go over the top. When you go against a pressure defense your only goal is to spread the field as wide as you can and use the sidelines to beat that press.

[Guest]

This scenario has nothing to do with technique.Both Pep and Klopp have said repeatedly that tiki-taka is over rated. They have no issue with the defenders playing long ball over the top. In your scenario if a team is playing a high pressure defense such as a 3-5-2 they are hoping the center backs will be looking to pass to midfielders in the middle channel and will even let that first ball go through and have 2 players immediately there to steal and make a play on goal, C’mon SN, you know better to think refining passing skills vs. an equally competitive team is asking a lot. Building out of the back is the perfect trap for those teams who refuse to go over the top. When you go against a pressure defense your only goal is to spread the field as wide as you can and use the sidelines to beat that press.

I think you are confusing a technical professional player that plays a particular brand of soccer with a Youth Soccer player from NJ who has trouble passing from the back. If you watch the passing skills of most/some youth soccer defenders, they are not playing some technical brand of forward-facing quick counter attacking soccer. They are playing just to get the ball cleared from the back to relieve pressure because they simply do not have the skillset to make the proper pass under pressure. As a matter of fact, coaches may adopt a boot the ball style of play, which becomes nothing more than a 50-50 proposition at best because they realize their backs may be lacking the skill set in tight spaces. Further, making a pass in tight spaces or through the middle is not tiki -Taki soccer. It's simply maintaining possession until one has the ability to go forward in a more direct game.

We worry about style of play after the player is technical, we do not adopt a style simply because a player is not technical.

Soccer Nut

[Guest]

You seem to be trying to say that 'tricks' are not technique, which is mainly true. However, juggling is a very worthwhile skill to pursue. Foot-Eye coordination, receivances and weight of touch are all honed through juggling. Similarly, passing accuracy is something that anyone can achieve by practicing. If your premise was that many players fail to master and continually practice basic skills and instead focus on tricks then I am in agreement, but I see juggling as one of those basic skills.

I wish that was my quote. It was said by Cryuff and repeated thousands of times but almost every coach in the world. Totally fine if you are not in agreement. But Messi would disagree with you.

[Guest]

I think you are confusing a technical professional player that plays a particular brand of soccer with a Youth Soccer player from NJ who has trouble passing from the back. If you watch the passing skills of most/some youth soccer defenders, they are not playing some technical brand of forward-facing quick counter attacking soccer. They are playing just to get the ball cleared from the back to relieve pressure because they simply do not have the skillset to make the proper pass under pressure. As a matter of fact, coaches may adopt a boot the ball style of play, which becomes nothing more than a 50-50 proposition at best because they realize their backs may be lacking the skill set in tight spaces. Further, making a pass in tight spaces or through the middle is not tiki -Taki soccer. It's simply maintaining possession until one has the ability to go forward in a more direct game.

We worry about style of play after the player is technical, we do not adopt a style simply because a player is not technical.

Soccer Nut

Well, the great USMNT Coach 3G has stated THAT he wants to play a possession style soccer as you suggest. With his two professional MLS Center backs they will get shredded against Wales and England. All I will say your assuming a lot by saying that to be successful they need to have the skill set to make a proper pass. With Englands front 7 and their high pressure defense we shall see how much possession the USA will maintain.

[Guest]

I think you are confusing a technical professional player that plays a particular brand of soccer with a Youth Soccer player from NJ who has trouble passing from the back. If you watch the passing skills of most/some youth soccer defenders, they are not playing some technical brand of forward-facing quick counter attacking soccer. They are playing just to get the ball cleared from the back to relieve pressure because they simply do not have the skillset to make the proper pass under pressure. As a matter of fact, coaches may adopt a boot the ball style of play, which becomes nothing more than a 50-50 proposition at best because they realize their backs may be lacking the skill set in tight spaces. Further, making a pass in tight spaces or through the middle is not tiki -Taki soccer. It's simply maintaining possession until one has the ability to go forward in a more direct game.

We worry about style of play after the player is technical, we do not adopt a style simply because a player is not technical.

Soccer Nut

This is so well said. It’s not every team that plays this way but the biggest clubs in our state do. It makes me cringe when I see the ball booted from the OB and lost. You are right it’s 50/50 but honestly after the 3rd time it’s done to a more skilled team it’s 70/30 odds. It’s painful to watch, which could be why people are saying they dislike watching women’s soccer. Its also the coaches fault as there are some highly skilled outside back and center mids - but they are directed by their coaches. Many coaches today don’t let a player think for themselves.

[Guest]

This is so well said. It’s not every team that plays this way but the biggest clubs in our state do. It makes me cringe when I see the ball booted from the OB and lost. You are right it’s 50/50 but honestly after the 3rd time it’s done to a more skilled team it’s 70/30 odds. It’s painful to watch, which could be why people are saying they dislike watching women’s soccer. Its also the coaches fault as there are some highly skilled outside back and center mids - but they are directed by their coaches. Many coaches today don’t let a player think for themselves.

I cringe reading this post. Did you watch the Womens Euros? The crowds were amazing. The final at Wembley was sold out! Ten years ago there was no womens leagues in Europe. Twenty years ago girls did not play football. The growth of the womens game is astounding. ESPN televised every match. The quality of the matches, the intensity of the players was eye opening. And here you are saying “people are saying they dislike watching women’s soccer”. “That it’s painful to watch” it goes to show you have no clue about soccer. Let me guess your daughter started playing and now your an expert. You never played, never watched on tv and know nothing about soccer.

[Guest]

I cringe reading this post. Did you watch the Womens Euros? The crowds were amazing. The final at Wembley was sold out! Ten years ago there was no womens leagues in Europe. Twenty years ago girls did not play football. The growth of the womens game is astounding. ESPN televised every match. The quality of the matches, the intensity of the players was eye opening. And here you are saying “people are saying they dislike watching women’s soccer”. “That it’s painful to watch” it goes to show you have no clue about soccer. Let me guess your daughter started playing and now your an expert. You never played, never watched on tv and know nothing about soccer.

This was a response to a longer conversation about youth soccer in NJ and the challenge with the some defense teams not be coached properly to move the ball so they boot it. But taken out of context does sound like I was not supporting. I absolutely support women’s soccer although I prefer to watch the premier league. I’m not born American so yes, soccer was the only sport we watched and played. I am thrilled that one match in over 100 years was sold out and talked about- it’s a start. But not happy that these kids are not making enough money to buy a car. And their counterparts in England own 3 planes.

[Guest]

You seem to be trying to say that 'tricks' are not technique, which is mainly true. However, juggling is a very worthwhile skill to pursue. Foot-Eye coordination, receivances and weight of touch are all honed through juggling. Similarly, passing accuracy is something that anyone can achieve by practicing. If your premise was that many players fail to master and continually practice basic skills and instead focus on tricks then I am in agreement, but I see juggling as one of those basic skills.

Not the OP, but if you have a beef with the philosophy, take with up with Cruyff (RIP). I get you think you may know more, but....

[Guest]

I grew up playing in a much different era. I was able to, relatively successfully, do the following out of the back:

* Win ball
* Launch ball

That was, basically, it. Never taught nor never considered anything else. So, well after college I'm on a men's league team (we played together for over 30 years) and we get a couple of new guys, fresh out of school. After a period of sustained pressure one of our backs makes a crunching tackle, and launches it way down the sideline to some "nice ball" comments, etc. (LOL) One of the new guys turns to him and screams "WHAT THE FVCK??? WE JUST SPENT 10 FVCKIN' MINUTES TRYING TO WIN THE BALL BACK AND THE FIRST YOU DO IS GIVE IT BACK?" We sat there, stunned. Like..."gee, why didn't we ever think of that?" He carries on "If I wanted to play fetch all day I'd get a dog."

I was over 30 years old at this point and I finally started to learn how to play the game....

[Guest]

It is my opinion, and that's all it can be, but every single one of them. I have legitimately tried to watch these games since theyre all on ESPN+. Knowing how much other football is available it makes it hard to get through even just a half. Its the nature of the women's game, which is fed by our youth leagues where physicality and sprint speed are valued above iq, technical ability and vision. Doesnt mean i dont hope for my kid to play at that level, but we recognize that as the game goes, it aint pretty.

youth leagues are pay to play, designed to feed College soccer. That ranges from a handful of top level soccer schools with facilities, coaches and frankly, track records that eclipse the NWSL teams on down. Terms like D1 attempt to lump all that together, implying that its all similar quality. Its not. This is not a system designed to develop excellence even though excellence can survive it. The last few pages of this topic lack context. All of the opinions can be valid based on personal experience but without any knowledge of what they are referring to, its hard to comment intelligently.

[Guest]

The worst part is watching the center backs smash the ball forward at the coach's direction and then having the parents all talk about how great they are. On an ECNL team. I'm no coach but i have spent decades watching with this sport and I consistently sit there wondering what everyone else sees when they're watching a team full of skilled players chase the ball all day while pair of center halves just smash it forward in the air over and over and over.

[Guest]

The worst part is watching the center backs smash the ball forward at the coach's direction and then having the parents all talk about how great they are. On an ECNL team. I'm no coach but i have spent decades watching with this sport and I consistently sit there wondering what everyone else sees when they're watching a team full of skilled players chase the ball all day while pair of center halves just smash it forward in the air over and over and over.

At what level are you seeing a team full of skilled players?

[Guest]

The worst part is watching the center backs smash the ball forward at the coach's direction and then having the parents all talk about how great they are. On an ECNL team. I'm no coach but i have spent decades watching with this sport and I consistently sit there wondering what everyone else sees when they're watching a team full of skilled players chase the ball all day while pair of center halves just smash it forward in the air over and over and over.

As soon as a ball hits the air, the "nice balls" ring out. It could be going into a friggin' pond and still the sidelines think it's great. Meanwhile the entire other side of the pitch is completely open and an outside back is sitting there eating a sandwich.

I actually see it most in ECNL, believe it or not.

[Guest]

At what level are you seeing a team full of skilled players?

Good question. But false premise. I have seen teams who have various level of skill and the coaches demand that the players keep the ball on the ground and only clear from the back when absolutely necessary. PDA blues under certain coaches. LH, MO teams are pretty good at keeping the ball moving without smashing the ball forward.