Using wins and losses to evaluate teams

[Guest]

I see a lot of posts in this forum that cite wins and losses at showcases/tournaments as a measure of the quality of teams (or even the leagues they play in). Wanted to share a couple of results from D's team a few years ago as backdrop for some discussion about this:

1 - At one showcase, team went 1-1-1. In the loss, the teams looked very similar, and the opposing team won on a moon-ball that got just over the GK's reach in the last 30 seconds of the game with a 0-1 loss. In the tie, team mostly outplayed the opposing team, dominating possession and total shots and shots on goal (and hitting the crossbar multiple times), but gave up an ugly goal and only managing to get one in the net for a 1-1 tie.. In the win, the opposing team pretty much outplayed D's team as indicated by possession and total shots, shots on goal, but D's GK was amazing and team managed 3 goals that all came on set-plays (2 corners and 1 PK).

2 - At another showcase, team went 0-1-2. In the 0-1 loss, a clear goal by D's team (confirmed on video of the game) was not acknowledged by the ref (it was one of those that hit the crossbar, deflected down and the spin made the bounce come out of the goal, but the video shows it was definitely inside the goal); had the goal been recognized, it would have given D's team a 1-0 lead and the game result might have been different. In one of the ties, another clear goal by D's team (confirmed on video) was not acknowledged (corner kick, ball gets headed to just inside the left post, defender stretches foot back inside the goal to kick it out; video shows ball was definitely inside the goal); again, had the goal been recognized, it would have given D's team a 1-0 lead and the game would not have been a 0-0 tie. Third game was a non-controversial tie.

In both of these examples, the results don't really reflect what was going on on the field between the teams. In Showcase 2, obviously the results were influenced by poor officiating, but I would say that all 4 teams in the bracket were pretty comparable. But in Showcase 1, i would say the team we beat was probably the best team there, and the team we tied was probably the worst...but clearly the results don't reflect that at all.

Based on these two experiences, I am hesitant to use wins and losses to conclude the quality of specific teams. I would say the exception would be a win or loss by a large margin (say 4+ goal differential). Would be curious to hear other peoples' experiences with this.

[Guest]

Hey, remember that time when MF Shore technical director Ryan Tetro got drunk in front of his young players at an away tournament? Good times!

[Guest]

What team and age? It’s impossible to evaluate what is right for your player without the full picture. At the younger ages wins are meaningless and the smart coaches will compromise winning for teaching and development- which 100 helps later on.
when they get to U14 it does make a difference- not huge but it shows which teams can come back from being down or can stop a press etc.

Best thing is to get kid to a practice with the team, see how they like it and then watch a game is you can. See how the coach handles it. If you like the style then go. If you don’t, then look elsewhere.
at The highest level in our state the teams are pretty equal and many of the players have played together and they all know one another. It becomes pretty small. So it really comes down to fit.

[Guest]

I see a lot of posts in this forum that cite wins and losses at showcases/tournaments as a measure of the quality of teams (or even the leagues they play in). Wanted to share a couple of results from D's team a few years ago as backdrop for some discussion about this:

1 - At one showcase, team went 1-1-1. In the loss, the teams looked very similar, and the opposing team won on a moon-ball that got just over the GK's reach in the last 30 seconds of the game with a 0-1 loss. In the tie, team mostly outplayed the opposing team, dominating possession and total shots and shots on goal (and hitting the crossbar multiple times), but gave up an ugly goal and only managing to get one in the net for a 1-1 tie.. In the win, the opposing team pretty much outplayed D's team as indicated by possession and total shots, shots on goal, but D's GK was amazing and team managed 3 goals that all came on set-plays (2 corners and 1 PK).

2 - At another showcase, team went 0-1-2. In the 0-1 loss, a clear goal by D's team (confirmed on video of the game) was not acknowledged by the ref (it was one of those that hit the crossbar, deflected down and the spin made the bounce come out of the goal, but the video shows it was definitely inside the goal); had the goal been recognized, it would have given D's team a 1-0 lead and the game result might have been different. In one of the ties, another clear goal by D's team (confirmed on video) was not acknowledged (corner kick, ball gets headed to just inside the left post, defender stretches foot back inside the goal to kick it out; video shows ball was definitely inside the goal); again, had the goal been recognized, it would have given D's team a 1-0 lead and the game would not have been a 0-0 tie. Third game was a non-controversial tie.

In both of these examples, the results don't really reflect what was going on on the field between the teams. In Showcase 2, obviously the results were influenced by poor officiating, but I would say that all 4 teams in the bracket were pretty comparable. But in Showcase 1, i would say the team we beat was probably the best team there, and the team we tied was probably the worst...but clearly the results don't reflect that at all.

Based on these two experiences, I am hesitant to use wins and losses to conclude the quality of specific teams. I would say the exception would be a win or loss by a large margin (say 4+ goal differential). Would be curious to hear other peoples' experiences with this.

You are 100% correct. Wins/losses can be a gauge of how talented a team is but it does not tell the whole story. Usually a successful team COULD have a good coach that develops the players but that's not always the case (i.e. Matchfit shore). That is why if you are looking at other options, you need to check out some practices and games to get an actual feel. And at the end of the day, the wins and losses don't really matter. Obviously, you don't want your kid on a team that loses every game. But in the end, its about their experience and their development.

[Guest]

I see a lot of posts in this forum that cite wins and losses at showcases/tournaments as a measure of the quality of teams (or even the leagues they play in). Wanted to share a couple of results from D's team a few years ago as backdrop for some discussion about this:

1 - At one showcase, team went 1-1-1. In the loss, the teams looked very similar, and the opposing team won on a moon-ball that got just over the GK's reach in the last 30 seconds of the game with a 0-1 loss. In the tie, team mostly outplayed the opposing team, dominating possession and total shots and shots on goal (and hitting the crossbar multiple times), but gave up an ugly goal and only managing to get one in the net for a 1-1 tie.. In the win, the opposing team pretty much outplayed D's team as indicated by possession and total shots, shots on goal, but D's GK was amazing and team managed 3 goals that all came on set-plays (2 corners and 1 PK).

2 - At another showcase, team went 0-1-2. In the 0-1 loss, a clear goal by D's team (confirmed on video of the game) was not acknowledged by the ref (it was one of those that hit the crossbar, deflected down and the spin made the bounce come out of the goal, but the video shows it was definitely inside the goal); had the goal been recognized, it would have given D's team a 1-0 lead and the game result might have been different. In one of the ties, another clear goal by D's team (confirmed on video) was not acknowledged (corner kick, ball gets headed to just inside the left post, defender stretches foot back inside the goal to kick it out; video shows ball was definitely inside the goal); again, had the goal been recognized, it would have given D's team a 1-0 lead and the game would not have been a 0-0 tie. Third game was a non-controversial tie.

In both of these examples, the results don't really reflect what was going on on the field between the teams. In Showcase 2, obviously the results were influenced by poor officiating, but I would say that all 4 teams in the bracket were pretty comparable. But in Showcase 1, i would say the team we beat was probably the best team there, and the team we tied was probably the worst...but clearly the results don't reflect that at all.

Based on these two experiences, I am hesitant to use wins and losses to conclude the quality of specific teams. I would say the exception would be a win or loss by a large margin (say 4+ goal differential). Would be curious to hear other peoples' experiences with this.

great post and so so true. Soccer is a strange sport. You cannot judge just by results especially at older ages. For example PDA U17 beat CSA U17 9-0 recently. If they played again, that score can easily flip. Many factors to consider, bad weather, poor refereeing, missing players etc.

[Guest]

What team and age? It’s impossible to evaluate what is right for your player without the full picture. At the younger ages wins are meaningless and the smart coaches will compromise winning for teaching and development- which 100 helps later on.
when they get to U14 it does make a difference- not huge but it shows which teams can come back from being down or can stop a press etc.

Best thing is to get kid to a practice with the team, see how they like it and then watch a game is you can. See how the coach handles it. If you like the style then go. If you don’t, then look elsewhere.
at The highest level in our state the teams are pretty equal and many of the players have played together and they all know one another. It becomes pretty small. So it really comes down to fit.

Showcase 2 was U16, Showcase 1 was U17.

[Guest]

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[Guest]

great post and so so true. Soccer is a strange sport. You cannot judge just by results especially at older ages. For example PDA U17 beat CSA U17 9-0 recently. If they played again, that score can easily flip. Many factors to consider, bad weather, poor refereeing, missing players etc.

I don't think a 9:0 game can fall into this category. In my years of watching and playing soccer I've never seen a team lose 9:0 then turn around and make the game even close. This score means the the two teams are in a different category and should not be playing each other, it's bad for both the winning and losing teams. You can swing a game 3 goals each direction but besides that it's unlikely. Maybe they park the bus and pray for a break away but that will usually only net you 1 or 2 goals tops.

[Guest]

I don't think a 9:0 game can fall into this category. In my years of watching and playing soccer I've never seen a team lose 9:0 then turn around and make the game even close. This score means the the two teams are in a different category and should not be playing each other, it's bad for both the winning and losing teams. You can swing a game 3 goals each direction but besides that it's unlikely. Maybe they park the bus and pray for a break away but that will usually only net you 1 or 2 goals tops.

Depends on the age group. Younger teams this is very possible. At U11, D's team lost to a team 0-7 in the fall season, and then beat that team 4-0 in the spring. I agree it's rare, particularly at older ages, but it does happen.

[Guest]

Depends on the age group. Younger teams this is very possible. At U11, D's team lost to a team 0-7 in the fall season, and then beat that team 4-0 in the spring. I agree it's rare, particularly at older ages, but it does happen.

Was not talking about U11 the post is about U17. You would have to change the entire team to get that big of a swing.

[Guest]

great post and so so true. Soccer is a strange sport. You cannot judge just by results especially at older ages. For example PDA U17 beat CSA U17 9-0 recently. If they played again, that score can easily flip. Many factors to consider, bad weather, poor refereeing, missing players etc.

Ah, no. It would never flip unless the winning team's GK played with one arm tied behind them amd evrhrn they'd probably still win since the liser score ZERO goals. Sure a game that's lost by one goal may have been very close, and maybe on a different day would flip. But a one goal game also may not have been close at all

[Guest]

I see a lot of posts in this forum that cite wins and losses at showcases/tournaments as a measure of the quality of teams (or even the leagues they play in). Wanted to share a couple of results from D's team a few years ago as backdrop for some discussion about this:

1 - At one showcase, team went 1-1-1. In the loss, the teams looked very similar, and the opposing team won on a moon-ball that got just over the GK's reach in the last 30 seconds of the game with a 0-1 loss. In the tie, team mostly outplayed the opposing team, dominating possession and total shots and shots on goal (and hitting the crossbar multiple times), but gave up an ugly goal and only managing to get one in the net for a 1-1 tie.. In the win, the opposing team pretty much outplayed D's team as indicated by possession and total shots, shots on goal, but D's GK was amazing and team managed 3 goals that all came on set-plays (2 corners and 1 PK).

2 - At another showcase, team went 0-1-2. In the 0-1 loss, a clear goal by D's team (confirmed on video of the game) was not acknowledged by the ref (it was one of those that hit the crossbar, deflected down and the spin made the bounce come out of the goal, but the video shows it was definitely inside the goal); had the goal been recognized, it would have given D's team a 1-0 lead and the game result might have been different. In one of the ties, another clear goal by D's team (confirmed on video) was not acknowledged (corner kick, ball gets headed to just inside the left post, defender stretches foot back inside the goal to kick it out; video shows ball was definitely inside the goal); again, had the goal been recognized, it would have given D's team a 1-0 lead and the game would not have been a 0-0 tie. Third game was a non-controversial tie.

In both of these examples, the results don't really reflect what was going on on the field between the teams. In Showcase 2, obviously the results were influenced by poor officiating, but I would say that all 4 teams in the bracket were pretty comparable. But in Showcase 1, i would say the team we beat was probably the best team there, and the team we tied was probably the worst...but clearly the results don't reflect that at all.

Based on these two experiences, I am hesitant to use wins and losses to conclude the quality of specific teams. I would say the exception would be a win or loss by a large margin (say 4+ goal differential). Would be curious to hear other peoples' experiences with this.

Thats the game. It is the sport where the score does not always tell the full story, where its possible for an objectively superior team to somehow lose and where you cant predict. Thats part of the magic.

[Guest]

I don't think a 9:0 game can fall into this category. In my years of watching and playing soccer I've never seen a team lose 9:0 then turn around and make the game even close. This score means the the two teams are in a different category and should not be playing each other, it's bad for both the winning and losing teams. You can swing a game 3 goals each direction but besides that it's unlikely. Maybe they park the bus and pray for a break away but that will usually only net you 1 or 2 goals tops.

What if bad refereeing and weather. That can make a game 9-0 real quick. Was this a MOSA game? That can happen at the younger levels with complete mismatches.

[Guest]

What if bad refereeing and weather. That can make a game 9-0 real quick. Was this a MOSA game? That can happen at the younger levels with complete mismatches.

D's team has been clearly outmatched in some games, but never saw a 0-9 score. Worst was 0-7 when she was U11. After that, maybe 0-5 against a clearly superior team. Usually after going down 0-4, teams usually then pack the box and opposing team empties their bench. Can't really imagine how a 0-9 loss would reverse for teams above U13.

[Guest]

great post and so so true. Soccer is a strange sport. You cannot judge just by results especially at older ages. For example PDA U17 beat CSA U17 9-0 recently. If they played again, that score can easily flip. Many factors to consider, bad weather, poor refereeing, missing players etc.

What showcase was this and why would they match up these teams? Makes you wonder if they actually put any thought into these match ups.