Monitoring The MPS Impact

I would say that MPS themselves are comparable but many of the other Super Y Northeast teams are not. That is the problem I would think.

I would agree. Most of the Super Y teams are comparable to MAPLE D2 or D. The Renegades are at or near the top of the Super Y standings in most age groups and scores of 10-0 are not unheard of. Thus, it's reasonable to conclude that they are not challenged in the majority of league games. However, one could say this of the U14 Stars as well. They ran over the competition in the R1 league but I don't hear them voicing concerns about the lack of competition hindering their development (although it may be a concern making it necessary to play up in the future).

[StillLearning]

Wouldn't it make sense then, for MPS to play in Maple?

Forgive my ignorance, but don't some players do both MPS and Maple?

It would make sense for MPS to play MAPLE but they would not do that as it would limit thier tryout process and would have to abide by the recruiting rules that MAPLE has in place.

I think it would be good for both organizations if it were to happen. What I find ironic on this thread is the implication that MPS is constantly 'poaching' players from Maple teams. I'm sure it has happened but from what I've heard from MPS parents, one of their major concerns with the MPS organization is that they are not aggressive recruiters. Perhaps they were at the older ages in previous years but it does not appear to be happening at the younger ages and certainly no more than at Maple teams.

The competition at Needham was pretty thin this year. For example, at U14, the Renegades were the only State Cup RR team to enter. I think there may have been only a single MAPLE D1 team and they finished near the bottom of the heap.

U13 Renegades? These guys in particular showed success against solid D1 teams in Needham and RR.

True but the poster said his/her daughter was 14 so I assumed we were talking about the U14 age group.

[Cujo]

Do other Maple parents agree with the above? Is MPS really D1 Maple comparable?

Not an easy thing to answer. Depends on the individual team I think. Some are stronger than others just like any other team.

Renegades tend to be stronger than their Cape counterparts.

If you use some of the results from the Needham and RR you can see that some teams can compete.

The relegation system and the shuffling of slots and other factors makes it impossible to view MAPLE and its divisions as part of a strict hierarchy of competitiveness. Other factors come into play. Sample size has a huge factor. One or two head to head games can be deceiving. Were key players missing. Did the goaltender have a bad game. Another factor is at what point in the season did they play each other. Many team improve markedly during the course of a season while others decline or reach a peak. The best analogy I can think of was when my daughter used to run track. The best runners always seemed to pull away from the pack during the stretch run. My daughter's coach pointed out to me that the leaders were running at the same rate as the first quarter but the others were faltering. I would view the hierarchy as being overlapping. MAPLE's relegation and slot ownership policies can really distort reality. As does the State Cup process. It is heavily geared toward maintaining the status quo. Finally, there is so much movement of players coaches teams sometimes that it can be really difficult to assess things. That being said by the end of the process it is fairly obvious who the tops teams are but it is difficult to track things from one year to the next. The "free agent" system that dominates the youth soccer world sometimes is nothing more than a reflection of reputation and recruiting rather than development. This is fine for U15 and up but less so for the younger players. In spite of all this there are some incredibly stable organizations (Scorpions for example) that offer a competent and well run product to the soccer consumer. The bottom line is that we are producing some highly competent players despite the alphabet soup of options. This is a testament to the dedication of the players and an abundance of highly competent and dedicated coaches at all levels from Rec to the best D1 MAPLE teams. (and Super Y and MPS........)

[rwb]

MATHMAN said....The point is how the team does when it plays other teams.

Mathman... do you factor scores in? Or is a loss simply a loss? For example, Scorps U13 beat Blackhawks as well as MPS in RR but clearly the scores indicate two very different games. All losses are not created equally. MPS U13 may have been "unsuccessful" in the conventional sense of the word but for a team that has been together only 9 months they seemed to pretty successful to me. I believe FCDelco uses a very telling point system at their tournament...so many points for a win, so many for a shut out but the loser gets points for goals scored....

Wouldn't it make sense then, for MPS to play in Maple?

Forgive my ignorance, but don't some players do both MPS and Maple?

No...MPS has an exclusion clause

[FSM]

I would say that MPS themselves are comparable but many of the other Super Y Northeast teams are not. That is the problem I would think.

Wouldn't it make sense then, for MPS to play in Maple? Would Maple allow them to play D1 or would they have to start at the bottom. If competition is what is desired, it would be great if Maple made an exception and let the Renegades play D1 rather than MASC (to qualify for the State Cup) which is a complete waste of time and humiliating for the other MASC teams who are pounded by the Renegades.

I think MAPLE is counter to their philosophy. They are looking for an expanded game schedule, particularly for their older teams, and not one that can be compressed to a few weeks in April or May by weather conditions. They also believe in the philosophy of the expanded roster and the club passcard system.

I would say that MPS themselves are comparable but many of the other Super Y Northeast teams are not. That is the problem I would think.

Wouldn't it make sense then, for MPS to play in Maple? Would Maple allow them to play D1 or would they have to start at the bottom. If competition is what is desired, it would be great if Maple made an exception and let the Renegades play D1 rather than MASC (to qualify for the State Cup) which is a complete waste of time and humiliating for the other MASC teams who are pounded by the Renegades.

I think MAPLE is counter to their philosophy. They are looking for an expanded game schedule, particularly for their older teams, and not one that can be compressed to a few weeks in April or May by weather conditions. They also believe in the philosophy of the expanded roster and the club passcard system.

It seems like they can get the best of both ... extended game schedule and better competition in Maple. Currently, MPS needs to play in a league other than Super Y to play in the State Cup. It is either against weak teams from Maine or weaker MASC teams (please don't take that the wrong way, MASC people ... in previous years many of the MASC parents were very unhappy playing the Renegades because the scores were very lopsided).

Previous posters have said it best. The Renegades are simply another soccer club. Both Maple and MPS should get past the philosophical nonsense and just allow their girls to play the best soccer possible. The Renegades would be better off with more consistent competition offered by Maple D1. Maple D1 would be better off with better competition now that their top teams (Stars/Scorpians) have moved off to Region 1. The players win. Isn't that what it's all about?

$$$.

[mathman]

Maybe someone could persuade Mathman to post some updated ratings. The last go round had the U14 Renegades in the 600's which is comparable to mid-level MAPLE D1 teams. Although the updated ratings might change, it doesn't appear that they would be at the top of D1 (the winning D1 team had a rating near 1000).

I won't post updated ratings until all the Region I Leagues are completed. LIJSL, and a couple of NJ leagues, finish their season, for the most part, this weekend. After completing these leagues (there are a lot of them: LIJSL has 10 divisions, and there are 25 divisions in 12 leagues in NJ) I will run everyone through the May tournaments and State Cups. I hope to have all of that done in about a week, and then I will post updated ratings.

[mathman]

MATHMAN said....The point is how the team does when it plays other teams.

Mathman... do you factor scores in? Or is a loss simply a loss? For example, Scorps U13 beat Blackhawks as well as MPS in RR but clearly the scores indicate two very different games. All losses are not created equally. MPS U13 may have been "unsuccessful" in the conventional sense of the word but for a team that has been together only 9 months they seemed to pretty successful to me. I believe FCDelco uses a very telling point system at their tournament...so many points for a win, so many for a shut out but the loser gets points for goals scored....

Yes, scores are part of the algorithm. Say team A beats B 1-0, and they exchange 32 ratings points (this would happen if A were rated 275 points lower than B, for instance). If the score were 2-0, they would exchange 48; if 3-0, 56; if 4-0, 60; if 5-0, 62; and if 6-0 or higher, 63 points.

Conversely, if the scores were reversed, the teams would exchange 7 points if the higher-rated team (B) won 1-0, and so on, up to an exchange of 13 points if B won 6-0 (or 7-0, or 35-0).

Re: Is development hampered by Super Y participation

Thanks Sea Biscuit for the type of information I was actually interested in receiving.

[FSM]

I would say that MPS themselves are comparable but many of the other Super Y Northeast teams are not. That is the problem I would think.

Wouldn't it make sense then, for MPS to play in Maple? Would Maple allow them to play D1 or would they have to start at the bottom. If competition is what is desired, it would be great if Maple made an exception and let the Renegades play D1 rather than MASC (to qualify for the State Cup) which is a complete waste of time and humiliating for the other MASC teams who are pounded by the Renegades.

I think MAPLE is counter to their philosophy. They are looking for an expanded game schedule, particularly for their older teams, and not one that can be compressed to a few weeks in April or May by weather conditions. They also believe in the philosophy of the expanded roster and the club passcard system.

It seems like they can get the best of both ... extended game schedule and better competition in Maple. Currently, MPS needs to play in a league other than Super Y to play in the State Cup. It is either against weak teams from Maine or weaker MASC teams (please don't take that the wrong way, MASC people ... in previous years many of the MASC parents were very unhappy playing the Renegades because the scores were very lopsided).

Previous posters have said it best. The Renegades are simply another soccer club. Both Maple and MPS should get past the philosophical nonsense and just allow their girls to play the best soccer possible. The Renegades would be better off with more consistent competition offered by Maple D1. Maple D1 would be better off with better competition now that their top teams (Stars/Scorpians) have moved off to Region 1. The players win. Isn't that what it's all about?

It could be that they don't do MAPLE because there would be an overlap of schedules, where this is not the case with MASC. It also could be that unless they start their young teams in MAPLE, they'd have to enter as MAPLE D and it's a long slow road to the top division. Perhaps MAPLE should change their rules and allow teams to play in to divisions as do some of the Mid Western leagues do, but I doubt they'll do it just to accomodate MPS.

$oe makes more $en$e for MP$ than maple u10-u12.