End of Club soccer as we know it in New England

[Unregistered]

Maybe for me the *best* soccer is one that my child doesn't have to sit in the car for an hour 3 times a week. Maybe for you it is different.

The answer is not limiting the clubs. The answer is to have the clubs compete head to head and have the best teams at the top.

If Maple held a pre-season tourney and with those results of the tourney and the fall season put the best teams in Blue, the competition would go up. And free market would win out.

If a mom and pop team came along and they can prove their worth, then they should be able to go to the top over any other team.

Ummm. . . . MAPLE did essentially have that system less than 5 years ago--a strict season-by-season relegation system that largely ensured very good competition in the top divisions and a fun,exciting and generally fair State Cup structure. Problem is, every once and a while a "mom and pop team" did come along and "prove their worth" and was allowed to compete in the top division--and either (1) a team from a big club would get relegated, which was not good for business, or (2) a smaller club that charged a lot less would be competing in the same division as the big boys, which was also bad for business. Hence NEP was created, a league that is controlled by the clubs not any outside source.

Unfortunately, it has never been about "player development"--it was, and is, all about $$$. Just look at the spike in club fees since the creation of NEP. Having had kids who participated in "big club" soccer under both systems, I would estimate that fees have more than doubled over the last 5-6 years. And the training and competition is not significantly better--in fact, the quality of the opponents in the top division of NEP now is notably more uneven than the play in the old MAPLE Blue divisions. All this doesnt mean I'm refusing to pay--my kid loves it and so we pay--its just a noticable reality in the way the clubs are operating now. This new step is just more of the same--and five years from now, the fees will likely be even higher.

[Unregistered]

Thissue with the number of clubs is that it gives parents too many choices. 95% of parents are not educated when it comes to club soccer and they choose the close to home option rather than maybe driving an extra 20-30 minutes for the best option. The issue with soccer in this country is players are not being developed appropriately. Pick any club you want. Then take the top player from the 8 surrounding clubs and add them to the best team in the area. You would have one really good team with the best kids training with the best kids on a regular basis. Instead we have 9 below average clubs that will never compete for anything. Pick your region of the state and this could work at every level.

I will agree with the ignorance part but simply add that we wouldn't have the mess US Club Soccer has created unless there was demand for it. Trying to fix blame is like trying to argue which came first the chicken or the egg.

The first step to solving many of the problems IS education but how can anyone talk about the issues and problems to learn when forums like TS basically are just shout fests where the big clubs control the volume button. In case you haven't noticed P's opinions are basically very pro US Club Soccer and he essentially floods this site daily shutting down any conversation that is critical of anything that he doesn't personally agree with.

With USYSA you used to have a very Darwinist system that promoted player and team growth by pruning off the weaker players and teams. Under USCS the big clubs get put into the role of giant overseer and they get complete control to decide what happens. When you net it all down USCS will sanction any league that a group of clubs can get together and agree to form. Let's face it that the big clubs carry the clout so what they decide is basically what happens. What the big clubs want is expansion so they can compete with the other big clubs around the country. They are all focused on pulling in as many players as they can and that is distinctly opposite of the old Darwinist approach.

The fundamental problem with the whole environment is the levelling is all wrong. What you have now is a situation where there are as many teams as there are people willing to pay. That works for the clubs but that doesn't necessarily mean that the environment is healthy. What we have now are age groups that expand laterally because there is no pressure that a team will get dropped. What that does is water down the environment. The small clubs are just as guilty as the big clubs for creating this situation because they are not exactly turning players away either. In fact in many respects some of them are the ones out there fielding THE most watered down teams.

The real solution is to establish a true hierarchy of leagues along with a promo-relegation process for individual teams (not clubs) to seek their highest level of competition. For example, perhaps the powers that be on the NEP board could consider an agreement to automatically take the top two teams in an age group from the MAPLE D1 and instead of just creating more "championship" brackets simply relegate teams down to MAPLE. We need to do more of that rather than expanding leagues and teams.

[Unregistered]

I will agree with the ignorance part but simply add that we wouldn't have the mess US Club Soccer has created unless there was demand for it. Trying to fix blame is like trying to argue which came first the chicken or the egg.

The first step to solving many of the problems IS education but how can anyone talk about the issues and problems to learn when forums like TS basically are just shout fests where the big clubs control the volume button. In case you haven't noticed P's opinions are basically very pro US Club Soccer and he essentially floods this site daily shutting down any conversation that is critical of anything that he doesn't personally agree with.

With USYSA you used to have a very Darwinist system that promoted player and team growth by pruning off the weaker players and teams. Under USCS the big clubs get put into the role of giant overseer and they get complete control to decide what happens. When you net it all down USCS will sanction any league that a group of clubs can get together and agree to form. Let's face it that the big clubs carry the clout so what they decide is basically what happens. What the big clubs want is expansion so they can compete with the other big clubs around the country. They are all focused on pulling in as many players as they can and that is distinctly opposite of the old Darwinist approach.

The fundamental problem with the whole environment is the levelling is all wrong. What you have now is a situation where there are as many teams as there are people willing to pay. That works for the clubs but that doesn't necessarily mean that the environment is healthy. What we have now are age groups that expand laterally because there is no pressure that a team will get dropped. What that does is water down the environment. The small clubs are just as guilty as the big clubs for creating this situation because they are not exactly turning players away either. In fact in many respects some of them are the ones out there fielding THE most watered down teams.

The real solution is to establish a true hierarchy of leagues along with a promo-relegation process for individual teams (not clubs) to seek their highest level of competition. For example, perhaps the powers that be on the NEP board could consider an agreement to automatically take the top two teams in an age group from the MAPLE D1 and instead of just creating more "championship" brackets simply relegate teams down to MAPLE. We need to do more of that rather than expanding leagues and teams.

NEP is the problem three years ago before the big three moved to NEP, maple was doing a good job at age 14 they went from development to competitive and moved to just 3 divisions. The bigger clubs did nit like this because you had smaller clubs filling the divisions with teams and the bigger clubs lower teams were getting regulated to MASC. That is when they joined NEP who took all their teams good or bad and put them in a division which is more income and they could care less about development it was done for the money. Now with ECNL and NPL taking the better teams NEP competition is water down.

[Unregistered]

NEP is the problem three years ago before the big three moved to NEP, maple was doing a good job at age 14 they went from development to competitive and moved to just 3 divisions. The bigger clubs did nit like this because you had smaller clubs filling the divisions with teams and the bigger clubs lower teams were getting regulated to MASC. That is when they joined NEP who took all their teams good or bad and put them in a division which is more income and they could care less about development it was done for the money. Now with ECNL and NPL taking the better teams NEP competition is water down.

Maybe NEP has it right where there is no promotion/relegation so while their is an emphasis on results, there can also be an emphasis on player development. If you cannot see the difference between a team trying to connect passes and have a possession oriented attack vs a team that just kicks the ball and runs after it while packing ten guys behind the ball to defend then you dont understand the game and are just a parent who wants to say their kids team is great when in fact they are not. MAPLE is kick and run soccer. It is that simple. Aside from Valeo and Blazers there are not "clubs" that can compete on a regular basis. There are individual teams, but for truly competitive games they just cannot provide it.

[Unregistered]

Maybe for me the *best* soccer is one that my child doesn't have to sit in the car for an hour 3 times a week. Maybe for you it is different.

The answer is not limiting the clubs. The answer is to have the clubs compete head to head and have the best teams at the top.

If Maple held a pre-season tourney and with those results of the tourney and the fall season put the best teams in Blue, the competition would go up. And free market would win out.

If a mom and pop team came along and they can prove their worth, then they should be able to go to the top over any other team.

So it comes down to what is best for you and not for your child? Can you provide your name so I can put in your parent of the year nomination?

[Unregistered]

Maybe NEP has it right where there is no promotion/relegation so while their is an emphasis on results, there can also be an emphasis on player development. If you cannot see the difference between a team trying to connect passes and have a possession oriented attack vs a team that just kicks the ball and runs after it while packing ten guys behind the ball to defend then you dont understand the game and are just a parent who wants to say their kids team is great when in fact they are not. MAPLE is kick and run soccer. It is that simple. Aside from Valeo and Blazers there are not "clubs" that can compete on a regular basis. There are individual teams, but for truly competitive games they just cannot provide it.

I love how you generalize maple three years ago was good enough for the all the best players in the state. Some of who went to BC, UCLA and Maryland. Now you have a relatively new leagues and they are the best, I have a child who plays in ECNL and another that plays in maple and my last NEP. Is there a difference from Ecnl to maple and NEP yes there is a big difference in quality of teams they play and talent on the team but is it worth the money not sure and the travel is killing us. The difference between Maple and NEP is not much if any you can say what you want but I watch teams we played with little success in maple and are doing good in NEP. Those two leagues are comparable, my youngest team in NEP is no better than they were when she was in maple and maybe a little worst because some parents did not want to travel more and moved their kids to maple teams. I guess you can argue what leagues are the best but do not call one league kick and chase because you think the other league is much superior it is not true. Cannot speak for NPL do not have a kid in the league and never seen any of the teams play.

[Unregistered]

NEP is the problem three years ago before the big three moved to NEP, maple was doing a good job at age 14 they went from development to competitive and moved to just 3 divisions. The bigger clubs did nit like this because you had smaller clubs filling the divisions with teams and the bigger clubs lower teams were getting regulated to MASC. That is when they joined NEP who took all their teams good or bad and put them in a division which is more income and they could care less about development it was done for the money. Now with ECNL and NPL taking the better teams NEP competition is water down.

That is a very simplistic view of a very complex issue. The big clubs around here went to US Club because MYSA was doing absolutely nothing for them and when they went outside the boarders they ran into little USYSA fiefdoms that habitually screwed them.

The real issue here is what we think of as a club is not the same thing as what a club is in other parts of the country. In other parts of the country a league like BAYS would actually be a club and they run their own leagues like NEP then filter the best players up to a single team that tries to compete on a regional/national basis. What we have here is everyone is trying to do their own thing and no one has really been able to put together a large enough player base to actually compete with the big dogs around the country.

The reality is a small mom and pop club has no shot of competing in anything but the lowest division of club soccer and it is not because of the big clubs around here it is because of the big clubs around the country. The David vs Goliath thing sounds good in theory but most of the people around here don't even know what a Goliath actually looks like. The fact is our biggest club (MPS) reportedly has around 4,000 players in it but that is only 10% of the size of a club like Rush. Your interest is so far down the totem pole it doesn't actually matter.

[Unregistered]

Maybe NEP has it right where there is no promotion/relegation so while their is an emphasis on results, there can also be an emphasis on player development. If you cannot see the difference between a team trying to connect passes and have a possession oriented attack vs a team that just kicks the ball and runs after it while packing ten guys behind the ball to defend then you dont understand the game and are just a parent who wants to say their kids team is great when in fact they are not. MAPLE is kick and run soccer. It is that simple. Aside from Valeo and Blazers there are not "clubs" that can compete on a regular basis. There are individual teams, but for truly competitive games they just cannot provide it.

You mean counter attack soccer like the Real Madrid used vs. Bayern in the Champions league game recently? When Bayern owned the ball 60% of the game and lost 4-0? The Europeans and South Americans win the game using whatever style works. They are encouraged to use their creativity both playing and coaching. Not saying that it is the same but perhaps something to consider next time you want to step up on your pedestal about how great one style is over another. The reality a team that can't be direct when necessary is very easy to shut down sometimes.

[Unregistered]

I will agree with the ignorance part but simply add that we wouldn't have the mess US Club Soccer has created unless there was demand for it. Trying to fix blame is like trying to argue which came first the chicken or the egg.

The first step to solving many of the problems IS education but how can anyone talk about the issues and problems to learn when forums like TS basically are just shout fests where the big clubs control the volume button. In case you haven't noticed P's opinions are basically very pro US Club Soccer and he essentially floods this site daily shutting down any conversation that is critical of anything that he doesn't personally agree with.

With USYSA you used to have a very Darwinist system that promoted player and team growth by pruning off the weaker players and teams. Under USCS the big clubs get put into the role of giant overseer and they get complete control to decide what happens. When you net it all down USCS will sanction any league that a group of clubs can get together and agree to form. Let's face it that the big clubs carry the clout so what they decide is basically what happens. What the big clubs want is expansion so they can compete with the other big clubs around the country. They are all focused on pulling in as many players as they can and that is distinctly opposite of the old Darwinist approach.

The fundamental problem with the whole environment is the levelling is all wrong. What you have now is a situation where there are as many teams as there are people willing to pay. That works for the clubs but that doesn't necessarily mean that the environment is healthy. What we have now are age groups that expand laterally because there is no pressure that a team will get dropped. What that does is water down the environment. The small clubs are just as guilty as the big clubs for creating this situation because they are not exactly turning players away either. In fact in many respects some of them are the ones out there fielding THE most watered down teams.

The real solution is to establish a true hierarchy of leagues along with a promo-relegation process for individual teams (not clubs) to seek their highest level of competition. For example, perhaps the powers that be on the NEP board could consider an agreement to automatically take the top two teams in an age group from the MAPLE D1 and instead of just creating more "championship" brackets simply relegate teams down to MAPLE. We need to do more of that rather than expanding leagues and teams.

Don't think you have had any trouble getting your messages out early and often. And it's pretty clear that P doesn't even know what USCS is. The notion that you've been muzzled is farcical. And perhaps what is happening is Darwinian. Did you consider that, genius?

[Unregistered]

That is a very simplistic view of a very complex issue. The big clubs around here went to US Club because MYSA was doing absolutely nothing for them and when they went outside the boarders they ran into little USYSA fiefdoms that habitually screwed them.

The real issue here is what we think of as a club is not the same thing as what a club is in other parts of the country. In other parts of the country a league like BAYS would actually be a club and they run their own leagues like NEP then filter the best players up to a single team that tries to compete on a regional/national basis. What we have here is everyone is trying to do their own thing and no one has really been able to put together a large enough player base to actually compete with the big dogs around the country.

The reality is a small mom and pop club has no shot of competing in anything but the lowest division of club soccer and it is not because of the big clubs around here it is because of the big clubs around the country. The David vs Goliath thing sounds good in theory but most of the people around here don't even know what a Goliath actually looks like. The fact is our biggest club (MPS) reportedly has around 4,000 players in it but that is only 10% of the size of a club like Rush. Your interest is so far down the totem pole it doesn't actually matter.

Did the scorpions U16 team in 2011 lose the championship game by one and they were a maple team at that time. You think making new leagues helps consolidate the players your wrong. If a club is good players will follow all these new leagues hurt it was fine when maple was the big league now it is hard to figure out where your team stands. The more leagues the more water downed the teams are getting. The problem is not to many clubs it is to many leagues.

[Unregistered]

Don't think you have had any trouble getting your messages out early and often. And it's pretty clear that P doesn't even know what USCS is. The notion that you've been muzzled is farcical. And perhaps what is happening is Darwinian. Did you consider that, genius?

All that is happening now is a free market adjustment driven by an absence of rules. The big question is where is all of this expansion heading?

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to see that all that you have here with club soccer is the middle of a supply chain expanding like a balloon. The dummies in marketing think its great because there is more product to sell. The dummies in logistics think its great because they're shipping off more product than ever before. The problem is the market for all of that product hasn't grown at all. There are basically the same number of roster spots at the Pro, national, and college levels as there has always been so the company is basically blowing it's financial brains out over producing product that eventually won't be worth what it cost to produce it.

[Unregistered]

Did the scorpions U16 team in 2011 lose the championship game by one and they were a maple team at that time. You think making new leagues helps consolidate the players your wrong. If a club is good players will follow all these new leagues hurt it was fine when maple was the big league now it is hard to figure out where your team stands. The more leagues the more water downed the teams are getting. The problem is not to many clubs it is to many leagues.

I will absolutely agree with the principal you are talking about but the reality is there is no pathway any longer for a team like that old Scorpions one to even get to a championship game. There is just no pipeline like that anymore that channels teams in a particular direction. It just doesn't exist so looking backwards really does no good.

[Unregistered]

...There are basically the same number of roster spots at the Pro, national, and college levels as there has always been so the company is basically blowing it's financial brains out over producing product that eventually won't be worth what it cost to produce it.

Your faulty assumptions are (1) that the demand is mainly being driven by competition for high-end roster spots after high school and (2) that the vast majority of consumers are calculating value in the same, narrow way that you are. Also, your metaphor confuses who "the company" is: the "brains"--i.e., costs--are being borne by the consumers, not the clubs themselves. But since most of the expansion in club soccer is through teams that play locally, most additional consumers aren't paying much beyond club fees.

What's happening in the expanding lower and middle sectors of club soccer has little bearing on what's happening in the higher sector. This is obvious enough. We could be spared these long and marginal discourses about the broken environment, leveling, watering down, etc., if some activists simply went back to championing the "destination team" concept.

[Unregistered]

I will absolutely agree with the principal you are talking about but the reality is there is no pathway any longer for a team like that old Scorpions one to even get to a championship game. There is just no pipeline like that anymore that channels teams in a particular direction. It just doesn't exist so looking backwards really does no good.

There is no path back because the big clubs are trying to push out the smaller clubs instead of embracing them. They serve a purpose, not everyone wants to travel hours to practice and to other states to play. It use to be you played for the smaller clubs to about 13 or 14 and if you were good enough and wanted more exposure you would move to the bigger clubs but money changed that the bigger clubs made teams that where not good and where getting relegated to MASC and parents started leaving. They watered down their product to make money. Money is driving all these leagues and parents are starting to wake up. You can make as many leagues as you want but Massachusetts had a decent system till the big clubs wanted the money now it is in disarray no one to blame but themselves.

[Unregistered]

There is no path back because the big clubs are trying to push out the smaller clubs instead of embracing them. They serve a purpose, not everyone wants to travel hours to practice and to other states to play. It use to be you played for the smaller clubs to about 13 or 14 and if you were good enough and wanted more exposure you would move to the bigger clubs but money changed that the bigger clubs made teams that where not good and where getting relegated to MASC and parents started leaving. They watered down their product to make money. Money is driving all these leagues and parents are starting to wake up. You can make as many leagues as you want but Massachusetts had a decent system till the big clubs wanted the money now it is in disarray no one to blame but themselves.

How is it in disarray? If anything, it's more controlled and organized than ever before.

If you want your kid to play locally for a mid-level club, then go ahead. Nobody is stopping you. But if you want your kid to play ECNL or NPL for a top level, big club, now you've got those opportunities, too.

I will never understand why Parent A feels the need to criticize Parent B for their choices on what club or team their kid plays for. To me, it's all fueled by jealousy. Non-jealous parents don't care what other parents do with their own kids. Jealous parents come on T-S.com and knock other parents' choices.