Playing Long vs. Playing Short

[Guest]

Over (several) beers during the UCL final we got to talking about the virtues/risks of different styles. Strong opinions on both sides with lots of words from each to prop up their position. Finally, someone chimes in:

"Listen, the idea is to put the ball in possession where you can create a goal-scoring opportunity - a shot - with 1-2 additional passes. How and why you determine that, it sort of irrelevant. For example, if you are playing short your intent would be to walk the ball up and have possession at or near midfield, with numbers around you where you can then probe for entry behind the lines. Going long, it's about playing into spaces behind the lines, albeit quicker but the possibility of losing possession. Either way, the intent is the same: How can I go 120 yards to get within a pass of a shot?"

The conversation ebbed into what a goal scoring opportunity is (you can score from anywhere!) but also it depended on personnel. If you can take big bites, take them. Unless you are taking the air out of the ball and killing the game off, the pass that beats the most amount of players is the pass you should make. It's 10 v 10 out there, so if you can bypass 3+ players with a single ball, you have instantly created a numerical advantage somewhere. Exploit that. Going long for the sake of going long won't do that; nor will sterile possession knocking it around with no intent to attack. Find the ball that gives you an opportunity with the least amount of work, and risk.

Then, well, Carvajal scored and we all forgot what we were talking about.

[Guest]

Usually takes both. The threat of the long pass opens up the space for the short passes. The anticipation of the short pass, creates the mistake for the long pass. One dimensional offenses are easily solved by the defense.

Similarly, the threat of the tall guy heading the corner, opens the space for the short guy (Carvajal) to head in the goal.

[Guest]

I like to ridicule the people who criticize teams that play kickball. People who love to sound smart talking about "playing it out of the back" as the only way to play "good soocer." If a team is using a high press and leaving itself vulnerable to a ball played in behind, then it's silly to force your little tiki taka game into the teeth of the pressing opponent. I saw a coach yell at his goalie for punting this season when the other team was as forward as I've seen and all over his backs. Goallie rolled the ball out to his OB on the next save and the ball was in his net a few seconds later. Brilliant coaching.

That said, I do think forcing a ball possession, tiki taka, Spanish game, whatever you want to call it on a team as a means of development makes sense. It does take time to build the ball mastery necessary to be able to maintain possession like that and simply playing it long every time isn't a good way to develop that. No issue focusing on teaching a short passing style to move the ball up the field and spending time working on that to build those skills so the players have them and can use them well, but if the other team isn't going to make that kind of style easy, it's dumb to just lose games to make yourself feel good that you're teaching "good soccer." In that case, be competitive, use the style that works, and go back to working on your short passing at practice on Tuesday when you're your in your tiny corner of the field because you're sharing it with 5 other teams.

[Guest]

I like to ridicule the people who criticize teams that play kickball. People who love to sound smart talking about "playing it out of the back" as the only way to play "good soocer." If a team is using a high press and leaving itself vulnerable to a ball played in behind, then it's silly to force your little tiki taka game into the teeth of the pressing opponent. I saw a coach yell at his goalie for punting this season when the other team was as forward as I've seen and all over his backs. Goallie rolled the ball out to his OB on the next save and the ball was in his net a few seconds later. Brilliant coaching.

That said, I do think forcing a ball possession, tiki taka, Spanish game, whatever you want to call it on a team as a means of development makes sense. It does take time to build the ball mastery necessary to be able to maintain possession like that and simply playing it long every time isn't a good way to develop that. No issue focusing on teaching a short passing style to move the ball up the field and spending time working on that to build those skills so the players have them and can use them well, but if the other team isn't going to make that kind of style easy, it's dumb to just lose games to make yourself feel good that you're teaching "good soccer." In that case, be competitive, use the style that works, and go back to working on your short passing at practice on Tuesday when you're your in your tiny corner of the field because you're sharing it with 5 other teams.

so win over learn is your take? FWIW the kid who plays tiki taka can also kick long, but not vice versa. if you don't learn to handle pressure at a young age, what happens when you get older and need to build out

[Guest]

I like to ridicule the people who criticize teams that play kickball. People who love to sound smart talking about "playing it out of the back" as the only way to play "good soocer." If a team is using a high press and leaving itself vulnerable to a ball played in behind, then it's silly to force your little tiki taka game into the teeth of the pressing opponent. I saw a coach yell at his goalie for punting this season when the other team was as forward as I've seen and all over his backs. Goallie rolled the ball out to his OB on the next save and the ball was in his net a few seconds later. Brilliant coaching.

That said, I do think forcing a ball possession, tiki taka, Spanish game, whatever you want to call it on a team as a means of development makes sense. It does take time to build the ball mastery necessary to be able to maintain possession like that and simply playing it long every time isn't a good way to develop that. No issue focusing on teaching a short passing style to move the ball up the field and spending time working on that to build those skills so the players have them and can use them well, but if the other team isn't going to make that kind of style easy, it's dumb to just lose games to make yourself feel good that you're teaching "good soccer." In that case, be competitive, use the style that works, and go back to working on your short passing at practice on Tuesday when you're your in your tiny corner of the field because you're sharing it with 5 other teams.

Agreed. For youth soccer, especially at the younger age groups, I understand the kickball critiques. At the youth level, the focus should be on development and not winning games by playing balls over the top for the fastest forwards. We all talk on here about wins and losses, but, at the end of the day, they honestly mean next to nothing at the youth level. There is no doubt, it is more beneficial for development to play out of the back.

At the older ages and professionally, kickball is a viable strategy.

[Guest]

In club play, it completely depends on the players both teams have on the field.

You see kickball the most when either
- a team has a fast forward that the other team can’t defend
- a team is not capable of moving the ball up using possession so they play it over the top
Or a combination of both factors.

People who disparage possession play are just trying to help themselves feel better about themselves or their team’s limitations.

Actual adults will just recognize they are taking a real world approach to playing a game style that the team is capable of executing. No need for insults and excuses on either side, nothing wrong with that, up to a point (that point being where it impedes development).

But, rewatch the Spanish team in the women’s World Cup. Possession, press and speed crushed the world and will continue to do so for any team that can execute that.

[Guest]

so win over learn is your take? FWIW the kid who plays tiki taka can also kick long, but not vice versa. if you don't learn to handle pressure at a young age, what happens when you get older and need to build out

That's what you took out of that? What exactly are they "learning" by you stubbornly insisting on them playing into pressure, losing the ball, and giving up goals? They also need to learn to win. It isn't everything, and it's less important at a younger age, but it's not like it doesn't matter at all. There's also an aspect of learning to love the game. That's hard to do when your a kid on a team that gets pounded week after week. Keep playing it of the back and thinking you're a great teacher of "good soccer." You're doing a hell of a job developing lacrosse players and baseball players, cause those kids are going to hate soccer.

[Guest]

When creating art, we don't stop at the first draft

[Guest]

That's what you took out of that? What exactly are they "learning" by you stubbornly insisting on them playing into pressure, losing the ball, and giving up goals? They also need to learn to win. It isn't everything, and it's less important at a younger age, but it's not like it doesn't matter at all. There's also an aspect of learning to love the game. That's hard to do when you're a kid on a team that gets pounded week after week. Keep playing it of the back and thinking you're a great teacher of "good soccer." You're doing a hell of a job developing lacrosse players and baseball players, cause those kids are going to hate soccer.

They learn from mistakes. They learn how to make decisions faster, scan better, place balls on the proper side of a teammate to avoid pressure, how to use the opposing players momentum against them. Off ball they learn how to provide support and lose defenders while coming into space. They learn how to move defenders with ball movement or dummy runs, so that you play out of pressure instead of 'stubbornly' playing into pressure. And yes, you use long balls tactically to keep the pressers honest, as was said above - you often need both tactics hand in hand. 'Learn how to win' is a laughable statement. if you are only kicking the ball long and hoping for a lucky bounce, you are teaching kids how to 'win' the lottery because you will need a lot of luck to succeed. Even if you do succeed, who has learned anything? Did your defenders learn anything by mindlessly kicking the ball instead of making a decision and executing it? Did the midfielders learn how to provide support while they watched the ball sail over their heads past them? Did your forwards learn how to shake a defender or anticipate a run into space, - maybe this one- but maybe they just reacted to the ball and tried to win a foot race, which is not learning.

Would you advocate this style in another sport? Would you ask the basketball in-bounder to chuck it the length of the court every time or would you teach your team how to press break?

[Guest]

That's what you took out of that? What exactly are they "learning" by you stubbornly insisting on them playing into pressure, losing the ball, and giving up goals? They also need to learn to win. It isn't everything, and it's less important at a younger age, but it's not like it doesn't matter at all. There's also an aspect of learning to love the game. That's hard to do when your a kid on a team that gets pounded week after week. Keep playing it of the back and thinking you're a great teacher of "good soccer." You're doing a hell of a job developing lacrosse players and baseball players, cause those kids are going to hate soccer.

The hope is that they are learning how to handle the ball better under pressure, anticipate passing lanes opening and closing, moving quicker off the ball, etc. You can't really get great at stuff like that if you don't put yourself in pressure situations and work on it.

We've all seen this...our kid's team plays against a mediocre team and does a great job at possession, building from the back, creating opportunities and advancing the ball. And then the next day, they play against an aggressive high-pressure team and the possession stuff goes out the window...they start booting the ball and turn it over because they can't handle the pressure. How do they eventually learn how to handle more pressure? Yes, you can train in practice, but practice is rarely as intense as a game against a good team.

Given the variance in quality of teams, it would be uncommon for a team to get pounded week after week just by trying to do more possession-oriented play in their league games. Likely they would get pounded some weeks and be successful other weeks.

[Guest]

The hope is that they are learning how to handle the ball better under pressure, anticipate passing lanes opening and closing, moving quicker off the ball, etc. You can't really get great at stuff like that if you don't put yourself in pressure situations and work on it.

We've all seen this...our kid's team plays against a mediocre team and does a great job at possession, building from the back, creating opportunities and advancing the ball. And then the next day, they play against an aggressive high-pressure team and the possession stuff goes out the window...they start booting the ball and turn it over because they can't handle the pressure. How do they eventually learn how to handle more pressure? Yes, you can train in practice, but practice is rarely as intense as a game against a good team.

Given the variance in quality of teams, it would be uncommon for a team to get pounded week after week just by trying to do more possession-oriented play in their league games. Likely they would get pounded some weeks and be successful other weeks.

Yes. And if you allow the kids to 'get pounded' occasionally at ages 11-12. They will learn how to deal with the pressure and won't get pounded by 13-14. There is no reward for winning an extra game or two at U12. A good coach will take the mistakes as learning opportunities. A bad coach will scrap the lessons and boot the ball.

[Guest]

First year of 11 v 11, first month we turned it over in our own eighteen way too often. Lost a lot of games. Parents were pissed - it was comedy watching them squirm and whine.

By end of that year, we weren't turning it over much. Kids started to learn how much fun it is to play with it vs. chasing after it.

[Guest]

First year of 11 v 11, first month we turned it over in our own eighteen way too often. Lost a lot of games. Parents were pissed - it was comedy watching them squirm and whine.

By end of that year, we weren't turning it over much. Kids started to learn how much fun it is to play with it vs. chasing after it.

You had a good coach then. Congrats to her/him for teaching the kids instead of caving to the pressure to win.

[Guest]

The hope is that they are learning how to handle the ball better under pressure, anticipate passing lanes opening and closing, moving quicker off the ball, etc. You can't really get great at stuff like that if you don't put yourself in pressure situations and work on it.

We've all seen this...our kid's team plays against a mediocre team and does a great job at possession, building from the back, creating opportunities and advancing the ball. And then the next day, they play against an aggressive high-pressure team and the possession stuff goes out the window...they start booting the ball and turn it over because they can't handle the pressure. How do they eventually learn how to handle more pressure? Yes, you can train in practice, but practice is rarely as intense as a game against a good team.

Given the variance in quality of teams, it would be uncommon for a team to get pounded week after week just by trying to do more possession-oriented play in their league games. Likely they would get pounded some weeks and be successful other weeks.

Long ball, possession there is no right or wrong answer. It all depends on the opposition and quality of the team your playing. Both Pep and Klopp always answer when asked about tactics and style of play that “they have 11 players playing offense and 11 players playing defense”. There is no right answer other than how you respond against the oppositions defense.

[Guest]

Long ball, possession there is no right or wrong answer. It all depends on the opposition and quality of the team your playing. Both Pep and Klopp always answer when asked about tactics and style of play that “they have 11 players playing offense and 11 players playing defense”. There is no right answer other than how you respond against the oppositions defense.

Generally you are correct, but it seems like the discussion here is more about priorities around development vs. winning at the younger ages, not about competitive tactics for more mature/developed players.