The ECNL Sales Pitch - Fact or Fiction

[Unregistered]

DYOR .. Put this under different strokes for different folks. It is offered to simply clarify your last statement. If you have ever coached at a high school or college level you will know full well that you end up knowing all of the other coaches in your conference as well as several from others because of coaching movement. Coaching is a fraternity. A club like NEFC sells connections because the HAVE connections. If you will look at their coaches bios you will see that they have almost all of the major conferences on the east coast covered because coaches either coached or played in them. Here are just a few:

ACC
Ivy
Patriot
NE-10
NESCAC
NEWMAC

The way they handle things is very different than what you are accustomed to. What they basically say is, go figure out where you want to go to school and then we will put you in contact with the coach there. They spend a lot more time working with the players/parents on what competitive level they should be targeting than what it we experienced in other clubs. Here they basically will tell you where they think your kid can play and then you go and find a fit based upon your academic resume. The other clubs we have been with gave you very little guidance and they just had you blasting emails to every coach in America hoping one would respond. I don't think anyone has said that the Stars or Scorpions approach doesn't work because it clearly does but it is very different than what we are experiencing. That is why this should be labled different strokes for different folks.

[Unregistered]

I agree, by the time the kids get there they will either have the skill or they won't. What they did between ages u14 and u18 is what determines if they will ultimately have the skill. If my daughter makes a roster and gets playing time I will be able to say with 100% certainty that it is because of the club she is with right now.

I saw where her development was going, and I saw how the trajectory of her development restarted when she changed clubs. I cannot say for certain that she will succeed but I can say for sure that if we had stayed where we were she would have a) stood no chance at making an impression with the school she is currently talking to and b) stood very little chance of contributing at the level of the schools she is currently talking to.

DYOR

Some times a change of venue does just what you are describing but it sounds like you are giving your club way more credit than your daughter. If your daughter is being actively solicited by college coaches that will tell you that she has talent. I'm sure the environment played a significant role but when you boil it down it all comes down to the hard work your daughter did. She put herself on the map with her ability and effort. I would suggest that she probably could have gotten to the same place through a number of environments. Don't ever start thinking that there is only one environment where she could be successful because then what is she going to do in college. That is a completely different enviroment.

[Unregistered]

OMG this went on all night!

Engaging conversation will do that. Mudslinging gets old real fast.

[Unregistered]

My daughter has always enjoyed the excitement of playing new teams and testing herself against new players. There has never been any anxiety to perform. For her she is going out to play soccer, no matter who is there.

Traveling to find new, better teams to play keeps it fresh. You play the same local teams more than a couple of times and 9 times out of 10 everybody knows who is going to win. After the top couple of teams there is just too much disparity in skill and talent.

If the choice was playing on a okay team that traveled or a great team that didn't, I would have a very hard time choosing a team the didn't travel.

Networking sounds great in principle, I just can't believe it would work for us. For those players looking for localish schools - ok. But I can't believe a coach would have enough meaningful contacts in my daughter's target list of schools. Furthermore, as a coach I can count on one hand the coaches that I would trust to evaluate a player for me. I know a lot of greate coaches, but I also know that many of the value different things than I did. I want to see a kid play for myself, in game conditions, with their teammates.

DYOR

The Networking Principle results in Kids getting "pulled" in the direction of the Coaches Contacts, and hidden from or PUSHED away for other coaches and schools which might be a more optimal fit for your child. IF the select or HS coach has any influence at all, the kid CAN become merely a pawn in the coaches own process of network building through delivering and receiving favors. The the skill set of a "select" or HS team coaches does not include "cold calling" so do not expect any proactive efforts on the coaches part to reach out to colleges on your kids behalf. They may or may not respond to calls, but with the exception of a national and MAYBE a regional player where they are delivering a favor to the person on the other end of the phone line, don't expect these coaches to be calling some college coach they do not know to get your kid into the school of their choice. It is more likely that if your select team coach helps at all, it will with some school within his still rather limited network...AND even then he has a limited number of "favors he can ask for before he has to "deliver a favor" of his own. On the chance that the best player on team wants to go to BC, and your daughter along with 2 others also want to go to BC, who do you think the select coach is promoting and how is this Network" system going to work out for your kid

All things considered, the Soccer, Social, and Academic FIT is rarely optimal for a kid that places any reliance on the HS/Select team coaches influence, and when it is a fit, it is almost always due to the parents and kid taking the process into their own hands.

[Unregistered]

.... The other clubs we have been with gave you very little guidance and they just had you blasting emails to every coach in America hoping one would respond. I don't think anyone has said that the Stars or Scorpions approach doesn't work because it clearly does but it is very different than what we are experiencing. That is why this should be labled different strokes for different folks.

Strawman returns: "different folks" would like "blasting emails to every coach in America hoping one would respond." But NEFC, in contrast to the clubs it takes as main rivals, has a plainly more sensible approach.

Has your family been with, as your claims imply, Scorpions, Stars, and now NEFC during the recruiting years? What level college/division is your player looking at? Why not simply promote what is positive about your current club, rather than making backhanded, and doubtful, comparisons to rivals?

[Unregistered]

DYOR .. Put this under different strokes for different folks. It is offered to simply clarify your last statement. If you have ever coached at a high school or college level you will know full well that you end up knowing all of the other coaches in your conference as well as several from others because of coaching movement. Coaching is a fraternity. A club like NEFC sells connections because the HAVE connections. If you will look at their coaches bios you will see that they have almost all of the major conferences on the east coast covered because coaches either coached or played in them. Here are just a few:

ACC
Ivy
Patriot
NE-10
NESCAC
NEWMAC

The way they handle things is very different than what you are accustomed to. What they basically say is, go figure out where you want to go to school and then we will put you in contact with the coach there. They spend a lot more time working with the players/parents on what competitive level they should be targeting than what it we experienced in other clubs. Here they basically will tell you where they think your kid can play and then you go and find a fit based upon your academic resume. The other clubs we have been with gave you very little guidance and they just had you blasting emails to every coach in America hoping one would respond. I don't think anyone has said that the Stars or Scorpions approach doesn't work because it clearly does but it is very different than what we are experiencing. That is why this should be labled different strokes for different folks.

I can't disagree with what you've said.

Based on my daughters previous experience we had a good idea of where she can play. The college coaches who have approached her have reinforced that and narrowed down the range a bit.

Nobody has told us to email blast every coach in the country. My family started with a list of good academic fits and a list of good soccer fits, combined the lists, did more research, and final came up with a list of decent matches. I am much more comfortable taking ownership of the process rather than relying on someone else's messaging and relationships. As luck would have it, the two school she is most seriously talking to are from two east coast conferences not on your list.

As you said - to each his own.

[Unregistered]

I can't disagree with what you've said.

Based on my daughters previous experience we had a good idea of where she can play. The college coaches who have approached her have reinforced that and narrowed down the range a bit.

Nobody has told us to email blast every coach in the country. My family started with a list of good academic fits and a list of good soccer fits, combined the lists, did more research, and final came up with a list of decent matches. I am much more comfortable taking ownership of the process rather than relying on someone else's messaging and relationships. As luck would have it, the two school she is most seriously talking to are from two east coast conferences not on your list.

As you said - to each his own.

Forgot to sign...

DYOR

[Unregistered]

The Networking Principle results in Kids getting "pulled" in the direction of the Coaches Contacts, and hidden from or PUSHED away for other coaches and schools which might be a more optimal fit for your child. IF the select or HS coach has any influence at all, the kid CAN become merely a pawn in the coaches own process of network building through delivering and receiving favors. The the skill set of a "select" or HS team coaches does not include "cold calling" so do not expect any proactive efforts on the coaches part to reach out to colleges on your kids behalf. They may or may not respond to calls, but with the exception of a national and MAYBE a regional player where they are delivering a favor to the person on the other end of the phone line, don't expect these coaches to be calling some college coach they do not know to get your kid into the school of their choice. It is more likely that if your select team coach helps at all, it will with some school within his still rather limited network...AND even then he has a limited number of "favors he can ask for before he has to "deliver a favor" of his own. On the chance that the best player on team wants to go to BC, and your daughter along with 2 others also want to go to BC, who do you think the select coach is promoting and how is this Network" system going to work out for your kid

All things considered, the Soccer, Social, and Academic FIT is rarely optimal for a kid that places any reliance on the HS/Select team coaches influence, and when it is a fit, it is almost always due to the parents and kid taking the process into their own hands.

Your logic seems based entirely the notion that a player is not really worthy of their position on their college roster and they are actually at the mercy of their club coach who has to do them a favor to get them there. If that is how you see your player then I guess you are right. One of the big problems in the recruiting process IS over reaching. If you are trying to get your kid to BC but they are actually a HC prospect then you really are at the mercy of your coach and do need favors from them. It is much simpler to cut right to the chase and figure out that you have HC level soccer ability and that you really like the school so you can put all of your effort into meeting the coach at HC. That way the only favor you are asking for is just an introduction.

[Unregistered]

Some times a change of venue does just what you are describing but it sounds like you are giving your club way more credit than your daughter. If your daughter is being actively solicited by college coaches that will tell you that she has talent. I'm sure the environment played a significant role but when you boil it down it all comes down to the hard work your daughter did. She put herself on the map with her ability and effort. I would suggest that she probably could have gotten to the same place through a number of environments. Don't ever start thinking that there is only one environment where she could be successful because then what is she going to do in college. That is a completely different enviroment.

Of course it is her hard work and talent that will take her to her ultimate destination. You can suggest that she would have gotten to the same place all you want, however, I saw what was happening, I see what is happening, and you will not be able to convince me (or her) that her current coach and team are just as important as her hard work.

I'm sure there are other coaches and other teams that would have taught her similar things, and got her to start progressing again. But she has had at least 10 coaches coaches over the years (including uLittle, ODP, club) and we would rank her current coach as one of the two most effective for her.

She has developed more this year than any other year since she started playing.

DYOR

[Unregistered]

Sorry I don't see unsolicited spam with such controversial content as being benign. The difference between it and the MPS email are fairly clear from my perspective. The sole intent of the Scorpions email is to try to convince players committed to other clubs to leave their club and join the Scorpions. The MPS email is simply trying to sell a clinic and it is pretty clear that attending it does not require changing clubs. The MPS email talks about generic benefits that would be earned by attending that clinic. The Scorpions email is making very specific claims that clearly are intended to promote the idea that they are a better club than the one the recipient belongs to. Yes they are both sales pieces but I just don't equate selling a clinic with trying to induce a club change especially since I don't believe the logic used to motivate that club change is actually accurate.

Everyone is entitled to sell their product but grabbing content from a club's website and comparing it to unsolicited spam is completely silly. Spam is an invasion of our privacy but we have to choose to visit that website to view that content. We don't have to go to the NEFC website if we are not interested in their sales pitch. The Scorpions did not give us that option, they just put their sales pitch in someone's face. They are completely different propositions in my book and the fact that you would use the NEFC website content in that way shows how biased you are.



I don't see where travelling to showcase where the results have longer term consequences cannot help but create pressure. There clearly is pressure to perform because they are in front of coaches that they are trying to impress. There is clearly pressure to win because the results matter. There is also pressure created by the expectations because everyone is spending quite a bit of money to be there so it obviously ups the ante.

I don't have a problem with you wanting to test your children in combat so to speak, I just believe that you can do it more efficiently. I simply will not buy that you have to fly anywhere to find a challenge. I guess part of this issue is I don't see the need your measuring stick. Whether the team wins or loses is a separate measurement and really has very little bearing on your kids development because your kid can play great and still lose. What I want to see is my kids get pushed to the brink and have to push themselves. I could care less if they lose as long as they push themselves and learn from the experience.

I have a sales background. Networking and referrals are vital part of how I see the world. In my realm you want to find the person who needs your product and make your sales pitch directly to them without including all of the tire kickers. That is why the referral model that NEFC essentially promotes makes so much sense to me. I truly believe the concept that it is all about who you know. I liken the exposure model that the Stars promote to be like direct mail. Yes it works but it is highly inefficient and ultimately costly.

I am not one of those who wants to shut down ID2 because I think the more stones you can over turn the better off the whole system will be. I just don't like those who constantly want to tear down ODP. It just strikes me as real self serving dogma for the US Club devotes and I think the players ultimately get caught in the middle. One incident that left a real sour taste with me was over hearing a Stars coach rip into a group Stars players for attending an ODP practice. He flat out told them the club did not want them there. From where I sit that is strong arming the players. I feel that mindset just closes down opportunity for the players and makes them dependent on the club. Being too dependent on any club is never good.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the commitment lists. I see it as a coach taking too much credit and feel it is real slimy. They are also notoriously misleading and you have no way of knowing if the player is an important piece of a recruiting class or just a walk on. Way to many clubs throw the names of schools out there as though they are sending future hall of famers to the school when the reality often is the player won't last the year. They are nothing but a backdoor endorsement.



I think that you are being unfair. I don't agree with many of DYOR's conclusions but he has gotten through some of this and does have some valuable perspective because of that. I suspect that some of it will change once he cycles his kids all the way through. Hindsight is 20/20. Specifically I think he will see just how insignificant all of these machinations that everyone is prompted to take part in really are. Once his kids start playing in college he will see that it becomes very businesslike. The players either have the talent of they don't. If they don't they are not around all that long. Once you get to that point you tend to look back on your assumptions and realize that so much of this is actually organic and would have happened regardless as long as you target things objectively. I have confidence he will see that and his opinions will undoubtedly change as a result.

Well, btdt, I see you were up all night again, this time with DYOR.

Now you are changing the argument on the email. Now you're going to a spam argument. You've never received any emails from any other clubs? Sorry, but the content from all of these clubs are the same. They use what they can. They what they do is the best based on what they are able to provide. If NEFC had ECNL they would highlight ECNL or DAP or whatever. They have commitments lists or alumni lists as well. Would you expect clubs with impressive commitments lists to not use that information on their websites or in advertising? There was nothing controversial in the email. All of the statements were true as far as they went, and they made no claims that any specific thing is unattainable in some other way.

At least you didn't hatchet DYOR. You clearly believe he will learn from the first child as you believe you did. Most of your points are revisionist history. Sometimes the route is different because the situations which each kid are different. Sometimes a referral method might work, and sometimes a kid might get spotted at a tournament far away. Clearly being spotted far away is not the only reason to play ECNL or DAP. Some might choose those avenues because of the competition, the coaching, the reputation, or maybe because happens to conveniently be the closest good option available.

BTW, are you doing any traveling for the national stuff? Is any of that enhancing or additive to your NEFC experience?

[Unregistered]

Strawman returns: "different folks" would like "blasting emails to every coach in America hoping one would respond." But NEFC, in contrast to the clubs it takes as main rivals, has a plainly more sensible approach.

Has your family been with, as your claims imply, Scorpions, Stars, and now NEFC during the recruiting years? What level college/division is your player looking at? Why not simply promote what is positive about your current club, rather than making backhanded, and doubtful, comparisons to rivals?

Not different strokes but I want to answer for them. This is why the parents from other clubs get upset with the Stars/Scorpions supporters. Someone offers to explain something about their club experience and you attack it as though it is a slam against your club and then do everything you can to discredit it. That gets real old real quick. Believe it or not there are other ways to do things. We have had kids in the both the Bolts and MPS programs. We got very little guidance from the Bolts and only slightly more from MPS. I can identify with that "blast and hope" characterization because it sure felt like we were left alone to our own devices most of the time. We certainly didn't have coaches making phone calls and connections for us. If that is what they do at NEFC it is very different and quite frankly I would have jumped at that level of involvement if I had to do it all over again.

[Unregistered]

Your logic seems based entirely the notion that a player is not really worthy of their position on their college roster and they are actually at the mercy of their club coach who has to do them a favor to get them there. If that is how you see your player then I guess you are right. One of the big problems in the recruiting process IS over reaching. If you are trying to get your kid to BC but they are actually a HC prospect then you really are at the mercy of your coach and do need favors from them. It is much simpler to cut right to the chase and figure out that you have HC level soccer ability and that you really like the school so you can put all of your effort into meeting the coach at HC. That way the only favor you are asking for is just an introduction.

BTDT, you are really only critiquing your own prior method that now you are kicking yourself for. You sort of try to engage in a fair discussion but your logic is so strained that you just can't pull it off...partially because you have a huge stake in your own agendas and defending your own current moves and actions. In that last regard, you are absolutely no different than you were on the first go around. Your style of arguing and defending is exactly the same. Guess what? A family can go with Stars and Scorps and still use the "referral" model, or accurately assess proper fits for schools athletically and academically. They still might want to play at that level and maybe they enjoy some of the travel. They may like playing big teams from other parts of the country. You just go on and on attacking straw men so boost up your own expressed preferences.

[Unregistered]

DYOR....do you still believe btdt had zero posts yesterday and last night (and today)???

[Unregistered]

btdt, seriously, do you believe that Stars and Scorps should simply close their doors today and refer everyone to NEFC? Do you believe that no one should play for those clubs?

[Unregistered]

Not different strokes but I want to answer for them. This is why the parents from other clubs get upset with the Stars/Scorpions supporters. Someone offers to explain something about their club experience and you attack it as though it is a slam against your club and then do everything you can to discredit it. That gets real old real quick. Believe it or not there are other ways to do things. We have had kids in the both the Bolts and MPS programs. We got very little guidance from the Bolts and only slightly more from MPS. I can identify with that "blast and hope" characterization because it sure felt like we were left alone to our own devices most of the time. We certainly didn't have coaches making phone calls and connections for us. If that is what they do at NEFC it is very different and quite frankly I would have jumped at that level of involvement if I had to do it all over again.

Sorry for reading that post too carefully--the one which explicitly drew a backhanded contrast with Scorpions and Stars. In any case, I wasn't trying to "attack" or "discredit" anything, other than strawmen. I have no deeply personal stake in any youth soccer club/business.

There are, as virtually everyone seems to agree, some different viable ways of doing things. I have no idea why some of you are under the fevered impression that this claim is in constant need of defense.