The ECNL Sales Pitch - Fact or Fiction

[Unregistered]

Why are you so sure that the two posts were by the same poster. I actually wrote #831 but not the other. My children played for other clubs so I can assure you that I was not "setting up" a pro NEFC post.

Oh good, and while I have your attention and you are not btdt, why are you so against commitments lists? Why so "irked"? Would you presume that Stars and Scorps (and Bolts, etc) would not post them? Do you consider the NEFC "alumni" list of the same ilk, since it appears to be exactly the same thing if you look at it? Do you think the Stars and Scorps results actually have been mediocre relative to the Mass competition? Do you think you can play soccer at Harvard if you are just really smart but can't really play soccer?

[Unregistered]

Why are you so sure that the two posts were by the same poster. I actually wrote #831 but not the other. My children played for other clubs so I can assure you that I was not "setting up" a pro NEFC post.

Btw, there really haven't been many non-pro-NEFC posts other than the responses to defend from a Stars/Scorps point of view, so hard to pick out your non-pro-NEFC post out of that pack. Sorry for the error.

[Unregistered]

Oh good, and while I have your attention and you are not btdt, why are you so against commitments lists? Why so "irked"? Would you presume that Stars and Scorps (and Bolts, etc) would not post them? Do you consider the NEFC "alumni" list of the same ilk, since it appears to be exactly the same thing if you look at it? Do you think the Stars and Scorps results actually have been mediocre relative to the Mass competition? Do you think you can play soccer at Harvard if you are just really smart but can't really play soccer?

I see commitment lists as completely arbitrary because there are tons more factors involved in the college choice than just soccer. I think that using them the way the clubs (plural) use them is simply for selfish reasons and it exposes the players to unnecessary personal attacks. I will admit that initially I thought they were harmless but after reading years of trashing in the commitmentss thread I now think that they are very distructive. I have no opinion on the NEFC alumni list because I have never looked at their website but if they have pictures of Jay Heaps plastered on their alumni page I would feel the same way about that as I do the these posts about how important commitments to Havard, Yale etc, etc are.

[Unregistered]

I see commitment lists as completely arbitrary because there are tons more factors involved in the college choice than just soccer. I think that using them the way the clubs (plural) use them is simply for selfish reasons and it exposes the players to unnecessary personal attacks. I will admit that initially I thought they were harmless but after reading years of trashing in the commitmentss thread I now think that they are very distructive. I have no opinion on the NEFC alumni list because I have never looked at their website but if they have pictures of Jay Heaps plastered on their alumni page I would feel the same way about that as I do the these posts about how important commitments to Havard, Yale etc, etc are.

Haha....abot 6 different clubs claim Jay Heaps, including I believe NEFC.

As far as commitments lists go, the Stars and Scorps are impressive. No way around that and no matter how you slice it. I don't exactly disagree with you, but 95% of the interest in club and "elite" soccer is tied up with college soccer dreams. I've seen the panic at U14 and U15 and even younger about being on a team (not necessarily Stars, Scorps, or NEFC) that will provide some kind of college access. I agree that exposure is way oversold and that extensive travel is unnecessary. I also agree that kids are being asked to not only commit, but even be interested in, colleges way too early. My own kid committed in senior year and worked out just fine. That said, I don't think that means Stars and Scorps aren't good or that kids shouldn't play there or that they haven't had very impressive results relatively speaking.

Part of my issue with you 831 post is that you jumped, in my opinion, from commitments being too early to your dislike of the commitments lists. Seemed like a leap to me. And seemed like you had an agenda, especially since you posted that right smack in the middle of the gathering herd suggesting that the Stars and Scorps are terrible with exhibit A being their commitments lists.

Btw, DAP and its proponents, who I also have critiqued make much larger claims than even ones made up and invented here about Stars/Scorps. You'd think that you couldn't play college soccer at all at any level without DAP. And I'd suggest that teams like NEFC U17 boys, some of the Blazers teams, and some of the other recent upper level non-DAP teams are far closer to the DAP than some of the upper tier non-ECNL teams are to ECNL teams.

Finally, Google can take no credit for its hires. It had nothing to do with developing them to be Google-quality. But does it mean something for their hires to be good enough to be hired by Google? Is there something about Google that makes the best of the best want to work there?

[Unregistered]

from the data can tell you anything perspective...

has anyone given any thought to whether those kids who have the ability AND desire to play in college tend to migrate towards one another and end up on the "best" teams in the state for the age groups-which may well be ECNL on the girls side? If this were the case the clubs with the top two teams in the state for the age group SHOULD have more commitments than other teams/clubs by virtue of having the players who DESIRE to play in college. Many kids (boys and girls) play all through HS but then have no real interest in playing in college--maybe they are happy with their non ecnl club, dont have the desire to play in college and stay put.

How about comparing the % of kids on ECNL teams that want to play D1 college to the % of kids on non-ECNL teams that want to play D1 soccer? NOw this is hypothetical--What if 100% of ECNL kids want to play D1 but only 80% get an offer, and then you see that only 20% of non-ECNL kids want to play D1 soccer and 20% get an offer. You could still conclude that ECNL kids play more D1 college soccer but you could also conclude that non-ECNL teams do a better job at getting the kids where they want in college. I am not saying this is true--just presenting a different perspective when looking at the "data."

I find nothing wrong with clubs promoting their "successes". They are selling a product--often the company with the best PR does the best. Haven't we all heard that android technology is better than iphone technology--but more us love our iphones right?

[Unregistered]

from the data can tell you anything perspective...

has anyone given any thought to whether those kids who have the ability AND desire to play in college tend to migrate towards one another and end up on the "best" teams in the state for the age groups-which may well be ECNL on the girls side? If this were the case the clubs with the top two teams in the state for the age group SHOULD have more commitments than other teams/clubs by virtue of having the players who DESIRE to play in college. Many kids (boys and girls) play all through HS but then have no real interest in playing in college--maybe they are happy with their non ecnl club, dont have the desire to play in college and stay put.

How about comparing the % of kids on ECNL teams that want to play D1 college to the % of kids on non-ECNL teams that want to play D1 soccer? NOw this is hypothetical--What if 100% of ECNL kids want to play D1 but only 80% get an offer, and then you see that only 20% of non-ECNL kids want to play D1 soccer and 20% get an offer. You could still conclude that ECNL kids play more D1 college soccer but you could also conclude that non-ECNL teams do a better job at getting the kids where they want in college. I am not saying this is true--just presenting a different perspective when looking at the "data."

I find nothing wrong with clubs promoting their "successes". They are selling a product--often the company with the best PR does the best. Haven't we all heard that android technology is better than iphone technology--but more us love our iphones right?

I agree with this mostly (and I am the current bad guy and apparently for some long-term bad guy). I'm sure there are some ECNL kids who fall short of what they dreamed (or what their parents dreamed), which of course isn't a phenomenon exclusive to them or ECNL teams. But in general I would suggest these kids have more choices. There may be some who have the option to play D1 (at least mid to low level D1) as the DAP folks always claim and choose to go high academic D3. In your analogy, there might be fewer players who have the choice, as in non-ECNL teams are more likely to have kids who only have D3 as a choice.

[Unregistered]

Haha....abot 6 different clubs claim Jay Heaps, including I believe NEFC.

As far as commitments lists go, the Stars and Scorps are impressive. No way around that and no matter how you slice it. I don't exactly disagree with you, but 95% of the interest in club and "elite" soccer is tied up with college soccer dreams. I've seen the panic at U14 and U15 and even younger about being on a team (not necessarily Stars, Scorps, or NEFC) that will provide some kind of college access. I agree that exposure is way oversold and that extensive travel is unnecessary. I also agree that kids are being asked to not only commit, but even be interested in, colleges way too early. My own kid committed in senior year and worked out just fine. That said, I don't think that means Stars and Scorps aren't good or that kids shouldn't play there or that they haven't had very impressive results relatively speaking.

Part of my issue with you 831 post is that you jumped, in my opinion, from commitments being too early to your dislike of the commitments lists. Seemed like a leap to me. And seemed like you had an agenda, especially since you posted that right smack in the middle of the gathering herd suggesting that the Stars and Scorps are terrible with exhibit A being their commitments lists.

Btw, DAP and its proponents, who I also have critiqued make much larger claims than even ones made up and invented here about Stars/Scorps. You'd think that you couldn't play college soccer at all at any level without DAP. And I'd suggest that teams like NEFC U17 boys, some of the Blazers teams, and some of the other recent upper level non-DAP teams are far closer to the DAP than some of the upper tier non-ECNL teams are to ECNL teams.

Finally, Google can take no credit for its hires. It had nothing to do with developing them to be Google-quality. But does it mean something for their hires to be good enough to be hired by Google? Is there something about Google that makes the best of the best want to work there?

Decent points, but your last point is a rather frivolous leap if you ask me because I don't think that getting hired by a big company necessarily means anything special. I have worked in big companies and worked beside plenty of no-talent hacks. The point that chafes me about the pro-ECNL rhetoric is they want to anoint ALL the teams as superior to the rest of the girls teams out there. I don't see that as logically possible and as soon as you peel back that assumption a whole lot of other claims start to not add up. Like claiming that playing on an ECNL team is just like working for Google. What evidence do you have that any of these clubs are the equivalent of a Google? That is a pretty fanciful leap if you ask me.

[Unregistered]

Decent points, but your last point is a rather frivolous leap if you ask me because I don't think that getting hired by a big company necessarily means anything special. I have worked in big companies and worked beside plenty of no-talent hacks. The point that chafes me about the pro-ECNL rhetoric is they want to anoint ALL the teams as superior to the rest of the girls teams out there. I don't see that as logically possible and as soon as you peel back that assumption a whole lot of other claims start to not add up. Like claiming that playing on an ECNL team is just like working for Google. What evidence do you have that any of these clubs are the equivalent of a Google? That is a pretty fanciful leap if you ask me.

It's the analogy. Just focus on that. What is the draw to the these clubs for obviously some very good, higher end players? Or do you presume that ALL of them are duped? Are the Miami Heat better than the Atlanta Hawks? Doesn't mean the Hawks suck, but you get the point.

[Unregistered]

I agree with this mostly (and I am the current bad guy and apparently for some long-term bad guy). I'm sure there are some ECNL kids who fall short of what they dreamed (or what their parents dreamed), which of course isn't a phenomenon exclusive to them or ECNL teams. But in general I would suggest these kids have more choices. There may be some who have the option to play D1 (at least mid to low level D1) as the DAP folks always claim and choose to go high academic D3. In your analogy, there might be fewer players who have the choice, as in non-ECNL teams are more likely to have kids who only have D3 as a choice.

I think the point about more choices is really the primary issue. How can any club claim to be THE destination of choice when there is so many different choices now? Once you see that point, all this talk of commitments actually becomes irrelevant because the changing environment and all the various choices it has created make it highly unlikely that one single club will ever be able to claim those sorts of results again. The bottom line has to be that unless you can actually pull all of the top talent on to one team you are not going to be capable of replicating sending kids to UCLA, Harvard etc in the future

[Unregistered]

It's the analogy. Just focus on that. What is the draw to the these clubs for obviously some very good, higher end players? Or do you presume that ALL of them are duped? Are the Miami Heat better than the Atlanta Hawks? Doesn't mean the Hawks suck, but you get the point.

I don't think anyone was duped but I do see a different reality than you. Staying with anologies, the problem I see with your argument is Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh (and now Ray Allen) play for the Heat not the Hawks. Everyone should be able to agree that they are the real deal and pretty much all of them will end up in the Hall of Fame some day. What you seem to be saying is that all of the players on the Hawks are destined for the for the Hall of Fame simply because they play in the same league as the Heat. I just don't see that that is going to happen but that doesn't mean that the Hawks suck. They are somewhere in the top 16 teams but hardly one of the best. BTW love the NBA analogy. Huge Celtics fan.

[Unregistered]

I think the point about more choices is really the primary issue. How can any club claim to be THE destination of choice when there is so many different choices now? Once you see that point, all this talk of commitments actually becomes irrelevant because the changing environment and all the various choices it has created make it highly unlikely that one single club will ever be able to claim those sorts of results again. The bottom line has to be that unless you can actually pull all of the top talent on to one team you are not going to be capable of replicating sending kids to UCLA, Harvard etc in the future

This is generally true. Additionally what the ECNL folks use as comparison is the general population of players in the state. That comparison is totally wrong as that is like saying every high school senior is a candidate for Harvard and stanford on an academic basis.

There are only going to be 4-6 teams in the state - out of something like 80 or 90 at U13 and still 30 or so at U18 - that have ANY truly ELITE players. There are only 30 to 50 girls in the state that have any real D1 ability or chance in any age group. And of those, something like 10 or so will never leave their local club regardless of their potential or any sales pitch. And by so doing some of them may drop from being a true D1 prospect. The rest of the true D1 prospects are going to choose between the top 4 clubs and NOT all of them are going to choose an ECNL team. Somewhere around 10-15 are specifically going to choose to take the different path and perhaps more as it becomes more clear that the alternative path is just fine as well.

Another issue with the constant ECNL marketing machine and this constant touting of the college placements is that there are simply not 40-50 players and families in the state each year that are entirely focused on college soccer and making a choice to use soccer to get into college or the BEST college soccer program. There maybe a number, but the majority of the players in this state are looking for the best college they can attend and only about 50 or so really care about playing college soccer at all. And most that care only care because they have spent so much time dealing with the mania created by this forum and other sources that make it the ultimate goal of playing soccer.

You need to get perspective here people. The world of soccer is NOT about college placement for the hundreds of players still playing club soccer in junior and senior year. It is an activity that they love and nothing more.

For the top 5-10 players in the state perhaps ECNL manes everything and college soccer means everything. But that is it folks. The next tier love the game and want to play in college and they figure it out whether they are on an ECNL team or not. And there are literally plaenty of players on the 7th to 20th best teams in this state that go to college and play soccer and enjoy every minute of it and never considered going to an ECNL team.

[Unregistered]

Your logic would apply to most of us, but not to him. Why was he posting so prolifically before, then, risking regional status and all the rest? Referencing specific players and coaches and calling for destination consolidation (as long as it was with his team)? Now he's poo-pooing recruiting when the started and mostly authored entire threads on recruiting. Now everyone's making too big a deal of it all when before he railed on and on how no one should ever play D3. Do you think you are in the minority or majority in opining that he's not posting anymore at all?

He's poo-pooing recruiting now because he trumped the game, something he couldn't o with his older daughter. Quite frankly at this point he doesn't need NEFC or ECNL, his kid is on an even higher path, one even the TS faithful can't reasonable bash and pick apart. He thought he needed a destination team to get her the exposure, but it turns out that being who he (his father is) coupled with her ability and genetic athleticism (must skip a generation) and height by-passed it all and they went straight to the top. The Globe article was just the icing on the cake in case Duke doesn't work out and she needs to look to a Boston area school. Game, set, match.

[Unregistered]

He's poo-pooing recruiting now because he trumped the game, something he couldn't o with his older daughter. Quite frankly at this point he doesn't need NEFC or ECNL, his kid is on an even higher path, one even the TS faithful can't reasonable bash and pick apart. He thought he needed a destination team to get her the exposure, but it turns out that being who he (his father is) coupled with her ability and genetic athleticism (must skip a generation) and height by-passed it all and they went straight to the top. The Globe article was just the icing on the cake in case Duke doesn't work out and she needs to look to a Boston area school. Game, set, match.

Wow you are obsessive and compulsive aren't you. Why don't you just drop it because as you note the game is basically over.

[Unregistered]

Wow you are obsessive and compulsive aren't you. Why don't you just drop it because as you note the game is basically over.

That was a different poster, not me.

[Unregistered]

Instead of responding to each response separately....

Don't think I ever said there was one destination team. I think was something my foe suggested before he changed his mind or as one of the last poster suggested, it no longer matters or is relevant to him due to the "trumping." I think Stars and Scorps have roughly split the pot, so to speak, over past several years.

Also very interesting that that I thing we'd largely be hearing a different tune if we drew the line slightly differently. If we drew the line at ECNL and Region I (which at least indirectly this thread and other already have done), then we likely would have saved a lot of pages. My guess is the NEFC/Region 1 folks would be very satisfied if we drew the line there and focused on how all of that group is the real college group or the real college commitments lists group and that they have a real advantage that is legit over the Maple and MASC teams, for example. Interesting how that works. Maybe that will help a few of you with perspective and your laser-focused critiques of Stars/Scorps.

I wasn't suggesting at all that the Hawks have HOF players. Quite the opposite, so we missed each other there. The point was that good players are attracted to the Heat. There is a difference between top tier NBA teams and the next tier. Same with soccer. Very easy once people aren't all revved up about their own teams/clubs, and if you take a step back you can give the Stars and Scorps their due even if, as someone once said, they aren't your cup of tea. That makes sense. Everyone's cup of tea usually is the team they picked or that also picked them.

The poster about choices took my reference to choices and changed the meaning entirely. I meant being a better player with a better club, in general, gives you more choices, not that there are more clubs to choose from. The latter may also be true, but there have always been a lot of clubs. Let me use an example that will be more palatable with the NEFC crowd and therefore easier to see the light. ECNL teams, or the better NEFC teams, will have more choices soccer wise, academics being relatively equal, than Berkshire, Crusaders, or any Maple D2 or mid-level Maple D1 teams. For just example purposes, let's say that one of these better lesser teams can place many of players at varoius levels of D3 but only 1-2 or none at D1, whereas many of the ECNL and Region 1 team players may actually be able to choose between some level of D1 and a superb D3. In that vein, all that is really being said is that ECNL teams, in general (so don't overreact) have some or a slight advantage over their Region 1 sisters. Simple, really, and by the same token, their commitments lists should be at least somewhat more impressive overall (while understanding that any particular individual may arrive at their dream in their own way).