When does it register?

[Unregistered]

Do you even read the posts or just hit random keys to see what comes out?

Post #34 said it was acceptable to give a FK outside th PA when handling occurred in the box. That is not only false, it's cheating.

All of your musings on human gnoseology or the theory of time are irrelevant.

I agree that it is the wrong call. But it is not cheating unless the official has financial or some other motivation. Which is rare in youth soccer.

I do take umbrage that those on the sideline could tell whether the handling occurred in the box if it was less than a yard away. If you are on the other side of the field and more than 30 yards distance as a fan you absolutely cannot tell where it occurred. Or even if it was truly handling.

The mistake the official made was in articulating a standard that does not exist in the LOTG.

[Unregistered]

You talk like I'm making this stuff up.
I am assessed by USSF (at least) twice a year to maintain my grade.
If I "miss" a game-critical situation, I fail. So does every other USSF ref.
It's been that way for at least 3 years now.
If your assessments are different (though, given what you just wrote, I doubt you receive any), you are not following current USSF guidelines.
Sorry, dude. Reffing is hard.

You are correct about game critical situations. I never failed an assessment , but I certainly don't enjoy it!

[Unregistered]

You talk like I'm making this stuff up.
I am assessed by USSF (at least) twice a year to maintain my grade.
If I "miss" a game-critical situation, I fail. So does every other USSF ref.
It's been that way for at least 3 years now.
If your assessments are different (though, given what you just wrote, I doubt you receive any), you are not following current USSF guidelines.
Sorry, dude. Reffing is hard.

I don't think you are making it up but you are being argumentative. I have been assessed. Recently. I passed. As I always do. But there are several elements of this issue that you are glossing over.

What grade are we talking about here 7,8,9?

You are accepting a fan's interpretation of what happened verbatim. That is risky.

Why? Did they understand and/or accurately repeat what the official said.

Many (alleged) officials in here say that they gladly discuss calls with fans and coaches.

This whole debate is why I think officials for the most part should avoid discussing their calls after a game.

What actually happened? Did the official award a DK instead of a PK for deliberate handling more than a yard inside the matrix? If yes then I can agree that they would probably fail their assessment. Personally I have never seen this as an official or as a fan or coach.

On the other hand I have seen DK's awarded when the call is very close to the box and the speed of play or number of players around the area of the handling occurrence complicates the call. At the lower grades it is likely that the assessment would (or should not be failed).

You say you are an official. I have to take your word for that but you seem to view thinks in very much black and white terms both from an assessment and officiating standpoint and I find that curious. Officiating is very much gray but occassionally black and white. If it were the former then our jobs would be easy and we would not be needed.

Furthermore if you are a higher grade official then your perspective is correctly different. The standards and tolerances for match critical errors declines proportionately. Why? Not everyone is cut out to be a 6,5,4 or whatever.

That is outside of my realm of concern. I am qualified to do youth games at U14 and under as well as adult leagues. I have no interest beyond that. If an assessor believes that there is such a thing as a match critical error at the U12 level and the league and assessing body agrees then officials will be graded or failed accordingly.

That being said with a 50% annual attrition rate of young officials I am not sure that we want to be doing that at Grade 9 and 8. Personally where I officiate the assessors are not looking to kill the 9 and 8's. Once again, higher levels? Different story.

I suspect that the game being discussed here was probably a U12 MTOC game. Really in the grand scheme of things how many match critical calls exist in that venue that get missed? Very few based upon my experience.

Viewing these situations from a fan's perspective as you seem to makes me wonder if you are even an official. Or maybe you are just being argumentative. Who knows?

[Unregistered]

I agree that it is the wrong call. But it is not cheating unless the official has financial or some other motivation. Which is rare in youth soccer.

Well, let's hope it's rare.
And, although I don't want to get in a vocabulary war, I don't know what else to call it when a referee sets aside the LOTG, no matter what his motivation. I know of instances where refs extended stoppage time because the felt sorry for the team that was losing, or didn't give a PK because they thought highly of a certain coach. Those sorts of decisions are not within their authority. If there's a better word for it than cheating, I'm willing to learn....

I do take umbrage that those on the sideline could tell whether the handling occurred in the box if it was less than a yard away. If you are on the other side of the field and more than 30 yards distance as a fan you absolutely cannot tell where it occurred. Or even if it was truly handling.

Of course. And, even if someone other than the referee does have a better view, that's irrelevant. The referee determines the facts. But, once the referee does that (to the best of his/her ability) they cannot then ignore the LOTG as it pertains to those facts. That is the point, the ONLY POINT, I was trying to make.

The mistake the official made was in articulating a standard that does not exist in the LOTG.

Yep.

[Unregistered]

I don't think you are making it up but you are being argumentative. I have been assessed. Recently. I passed. As I always do. But there are several elements of this issue that you are glossing over.

What grade are we talking about here 7,8,9?

You are accepting a fan's interpretation of what happened verbatim. That is risky.

Why? Did they understand and/or accurately repeat what the official said.

Many (alleged) officials in here say that they gladly discuss calls with fans and coaches.

This whole debate is why I think officials for the most part should avoid discussing their calls after a game.

What actually happened? Did the official award a DK instead of a PK for deliberate handling more than a yard inside the matrix? If yes then I can agree that they would probably fail their assessment. Personally I have never seen this as an official or as a fan or coach.

On the other hand I have seen DK's awarded when the call is very close to the box and the speed of play or number of players around the area of the handling occurrence complicates the call. At the lower grades it is likely that the assessment would (or should not be failed).

You say you are an official. I have to take your word for that but you seem to view thinks in very much black and white terms both from an assessment and officiating standpoint and I find that curious. Officiating is very much gray but occassionally black and white. If it were the former then our jobs would be easy and we would not be needed.

Furthermore if you are a higher grade official then your perspective is correctly different. The standards and tolerances for match critical errors declines proportionately. Why? Not everyone is cut out to be a 6,5,4 or whatever.

That is outside of my realm of concern. I am qualified to do youth games at U14 and under as well as adult leagues. I have no interest beyond that. If an assessor believes that there is such a thing as a match critical error at the U12 level and the league and assessing body agrees then officials will be graded or failed accordingly.

That being said with a 50% annual attrition rate of young officials I am not sure that we want to be doing that at Grade 9 and 8. Personally where I officiate the assessors are not looking to kill the 9 and 8's. Once again, higher levels? Different story.

I suspect that the game being discussed here was probably a U12 MTOC game. Really in the grand scheme of things how many match critical calls exist in that venue that get missed? Very few based upon my experience.

Viewing these situations from a fan's perspective as you seem to makes me wonder if you are even an official. Or maybe you are just being argumentative. Who knows?

To the best of my knowledge, USSF does not do assessment below level 7. Perhaps some experienced ref is providing feedback at the local level (sounds wonderful, if true), but I don't think those are formal assessments.

At all levels a miss on a "game critical" situation would be a failure. However, you are correct that what would be considered a miss for a national would not be the same as a level 7 upgrade. An assessor for an MLS referee is even going to use video replay to determine if the referee team missed something. Any assessor watching a level 7 referee will only be interested in whether or not the ref is in reasonable position and uses reasonable judgement. A VERY sliding scale, as you suggest.

The key point (and I have seen 8's fail their upgrades on this precise point) is that the referee must make a LOTG ruling that is compatible with the facts (as they see them). For example, they cannot say that the ball was last touched by the defense, and then award a goal kick, no matter how compassionate or fair-minded their reasoning might be.

[Unregistered]

To the best of my knowledge, USSF does not do assessment below level 7. Perhaps some experienced ref is providing feedback at the local level (sounds wonderful, if true), but I don't think those are formal assessments.

At all levels a miss on a "game critical" situation would be a failure. However, you are correct that what would be considered a miss for a national would not be the same as a level 7 upgrade. An assessor for an MLS referee is even going to use video replay to determine if the referee team missed something. Any assessor watching a level 7 referee will only be interested in whether or not the ref is in reasonable position and uses reasonable judgement. A VERY sliding scale, as you suggest.

The key point (and I have seen 8's fail their upgrades on this precise point) is that the referee must make a LOTG ruling that is compatible with the facts (as they see them). For example, they cannot say that the ball was last touched by the defense, and then award a goal kick, no matter how compassionate or fair-minded their reasoning might be.

Agreed. Another finer point that has not been made yet is whether or not the CR consulted with his A/R's. No consult on a game critical situation like this? Fail. No A/R's (which unfortunately is all to frequent) the CR is going to get alot of latitude from the assessor so long as the issue is judgment and not LOTG related.

Your point about MLS is good. They have really stepped up to the plate on using video, especially for what constitutes a reckless challenge/excessive force given some fairly egregious missed calls several years ago.