Play the game because it is fun...

[Unregistered]

So if you let your child do what they want = good parent
So if you sit on your child's shoulder and give guidence = bad parent

the free range concept is based upon the notion that kids will do just fine if you leave them alone. they might, but then again there were problems with things like neglect on the flip side of that. everything wasn't as rosey as it is being remembered (remember back to the term "latch key child"). children stopped playing outside and doing the things the free rangers espoused when both parents went to work and there was no one at home to supervise them. once parents had to make decisions where their children would go to be monitored they also had to start making decisions about the quality of what they were doing while they were there. you may see them as all helicopter parents but the level of involvement you scorn is now the norm in parenting. the evidence now actually shows that the parent who sits back and lets their child hang out and do what they please have far greater problems with things like teen pregnancy and drug abuse so while I agree that we all should lead our children to become self reliant if your solution is to just step back and let things roll they way they roll I believe that all you are doing is just foisting your parenting work on to others. that is lazy in my book.

[Unregistered]

So if you let your child do what they want = good parent
So if you sit on your child's shoulder and give guidence = bad parent

the free range concept is based upon the notion that kids will do just fine if you leave them alone. they might, but then again there were problems with things like neglect on the flip side of that. everything wasn't as rosey as it is being remembered (remember back to the term "latch key child"). children stopped playing outside and doing the things the free rangers espoused when both parents went to work and there was no one at home to supervise them. once parents had to make decisions where their children would go to be monitored they also had to start making decisions about the quality of what they were doing while they were there. you may see them as all helicopter parents but the level of involvement you scorn is now the norm in parenting. the evidence now actually shows that the parent who sits back and lets their child hang out and do what they please have far greater problems with things like teen pregnancy and drug abuse so while I agree that we all should lead our children to become self reliant if your solution is to just step back and let things roll they way they roll I believe that all you are doing is just foisting your parenting work on to others. that is lazy in my book.

Nice try, but overly simplistic. It is not just about "hands off" or "over-involved, over-directive." The question especially in the latter case is to what degree the parental involvement is driven by parental narcissism. In other words, is the parental activity really about and for the parent or the kid? Let's be honest. Most parents don't get turned on watching their kid do algebra. We want them to do well, but few get over-involved in that other than simply expecting a good grade in the end. We love watching our kid doing something athletic and public (or musical and public and dramatic and public, or whatever). And we tend to be incredibly competitive with other parents. Most of us at some level and to varying degrees do worry and think about where we fit vis-a-vis others. It is a comparative society. The typical, weak safeguard attempt is when parents say "I asked my kid and he assured me that he loves soccer more than anything and he'll give up high school soccer in order to do DAP because HE wants the very best....it's what HE really wants." But what the parent doesn't question is where that comes from and to what degree the parent over the years created the atmosphere and the psychological reward dynamics to get that answer.

[Unregistered]

Nice try, but overly simplistic. It is not just about "hands off" or "over-involved, over-directive." The question especially in the latter case is to what degree the parental involvement is driven by parental narcissism. In other words, is the parental activity really about and for the parent or the kid? Let's be honest. Most parents don't get turned on watching their kid do algebra. We want them to do well, but few get over-involved in that other than simply expecting a good grade in the end. We love watching our kid doing something athletic and public (or musical and public and dramatic and public, or whatever). And we tend to be incredibly competitive with other parents. Most of us at some level and to varying degrees do worry and think about where we fit vis-a-vis others. It is a comparative society. The typical, weak safeguard attempt is when parents say "I asked my kid and he assured me that he loves soccer more than anything and he'll give up high school soccer in order to do DAP because HE wants the very best....it's what HE really wants." But what the parent doesn't question is where that comes from and to what degree the parent over the years created the atmosphere and the psychological reward dynamics to get that answer.

OR, that the kid is providing the answer that he thinks his parents want because he does not want to disappoint them or is afraid that there will be consequences to saying no. In this case the risk/reward impulse compells them to comply with their parent's obviously biased wishes. If your kid is 17 and you have not yet figured out that sometimes (frequently?) they tell you what you want to hear then you are an idiot.

[Unregistered]

OR, that the kid is providing the answer that he thinks his parents want because he does not want to disappoint them or is afraid that there will be consequences to saying no. In this case the risk/reward impulse compells them to comply with their parent's obviously biased wishes. If your kid is 17 and you have not yet figured out that sometimes (frequently?) they tell you what you want to hear then you are an idiot.

OR perhaps you can't figure out that you just paraphrased the last sentance of the post you just criticized. He agrees with you. His last sentance means exactly what you just posted. He is not the idiot you should be concerned about.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=Unregistered;686041]Let's be honest. Most parents don't get turned on watching their kid do algebra. We want them to do well, but few get over-involved in that other than simply expecting a good grade in the end. We love watching our kid doing something athletic and public (or musical and public and dramatic and public, or whatever). And we tend to be incredibly competitive with other parents. Most of us at some level and to varying degrees do worry and think about where we fit vis-a-vis others. It is a comparative society. QUOTE]

A well-educated person I know, who values education highly, once said "It is a lot more fun when your kid is good at soccer than math." I think you are both absolutely right.

[Unregistered]

Nice try, but overly simplistic. It is not just about "hands off" or "over-involved, over-directive." The question especially in the latter case is to what degree the parental involvement is driven by parental narcissism. In other words, is the parental activity really about and for the parent or the kid? Let's be honest. Most parents don't get turned on watching their kid do algebra. We want them to do well, but few get over-involved in that other than simply expecting a good grade in the end. We love watching our kid doing something athletic and public (or musical and public and dramatic and public, or whatever). And we tend to be incredibly competitive with other parents. Most of us at some level and to varying degrees do worry and think about where we fit vis-a-vis others. It is a comparative society. The typical, weak safeguard attempt is when parents say "I asked my kid and he assured me that he loves soccer more than anything and he'll give up high school soccer in order to do DAP because HE wants the very best....it's what HE really wants." But what the parent doesn't question is where that comes from and to what degree the parent over the years created the atmosphere and the psychological reward dynamics to get that answer.

haven't you learned that all that social engineering does is screw up something different. you can't make the world perfect. there are always going to be extremists at either end. you can't "fix" one without having unintended consequences pop up with another. the answer actually is very simple because there is no perfect solution. what you need to do is find your own "perfect environment" and stop trying to tell others what is the "right" one for them to pick.

[Unregistered]

haven't you learned that all that social engineering does is screw up something different. you can't make the world perfect. there are always going to be extremists at either end. you can't "fix" one without having unintended consequences pop up with another. the answer actually is very simple because there is no perfect solution. what you need to do is find your own "perfect environment" and stop trying to tell others what is the "right" one for them to pick.

Have no idea what you are responding to in the post you quoted. How is identifying parental narcissism related to social engineering? And what is it that you think the poster was telling people to pick?

[Unregistered]

Have no idea what you are responding to in the post you quoted. How is identifying parental narcissism related to social engineering? And what is it that you think the poster was telling people to pick?

Because you want to set up a system to deal with those narcissistic parents when you could just ignore them. You have the freedom of choice, use it. Don't try to legislate the environment to deal with a segment that you personally find distasteful. Quite frankly I have been around this for many years and really don't have the sort of problems you constantly complain about. If you don't like parents get out of youth sports.

[Unregistered]

Because you want to set up a system to deal with those narcissistic parents when you could just ignore them. You have the freedom of choice, use it. Don't try to legislate the environment to deal with a segment that you personally find distasteful. Quite frankly I have been around this for many years and really don't have the sort of problems you constantly complain about. If you don't like parents get out of youth sports.

Thanks for the advice, btdt. I have enjoyed youth sports, and my critiques include myself and everyone else. I don't like all the advantages that parents try to gain when a level playing field doesn't yield the results they crave and feel entitled to regardless of results, and what I really don't like is the duplicity when they say it's what their kids really want and they are simply passive passengers along for the ride and that 10 year olds are making their own decisions. And I don't recall proposing any "system" to deal with the narcissistic parents. Maybe you can direct me to that.

[Unregistered]

Thanks for the advice, btdt. I have enjoyed youth sports, and my critiques include myself and everyone else. I don't like all the advantages that parents try to gain when a level playing field doesn't yield the results they crave and feel entitled to regardless of results, and what I really don't like is the duplicity when they say it's what their kids really want and they are simply passive passengers along for the ride and that 10 year olds are making their own decisions. And I don't recall proposing any "system" to deal with the narcissistic parents. Maybe you can direct me to that.

talk about narcissistic. you don't like something so the whole world should just turn on a dime to accomodate your likes and dislikes? why do you make such sweeping statements about parents? who are you to judge anyone? fine you don't like parents who work for their kids. my bet most of them wouldn't like you.

[Unregistered]

talk about narcissistic. you don't like something so the whole world should just turn on a dime to accomodate your likes and dislikes? why do you make such sweeping statements about parents? who are you to judge anyone? fine you don't like parents who work for their kids. my bet most of them wouldn't like you.

So you like it when you are in a competitive situation and you feel another party gains or takes unfair advantages or uses systems in some strategic way that you maybe could also do but you don't want to stoop to or go to those lengths??? You may have missed that I said I include myself in my critiques, but I guess you are so well-adjusted you live in another world than the rest of us, or, you are one of the ones taking unfair advantages all the time and you'd prefer to just go on your strategizing and scheming merry way without being called out by anybody.

[Unregistered]

So you like it when you are in a competitive situation and you feel another party gains or takes unfair advantages or uses systems in some strategic way that you maybe could also do but you don't want to stoop to or go to those lengths???

Um, different poster here but you had me until this line. You sound more like sour grapes than child advocate. Those helicopter parents are out doing you, huh? Yikes.

[beentheredonethat]

So you like it when you are in a competitive situation and you feel another party gains or takes unfair advantages or uses systems in some strategic way that you maybe could also do but you don't want to stoop to or go to those lengths??? You may have missed that I said I include myself in my critiques, but I guess you are so well-adjusted you live in another world than the rest of us, or, you are one of the ones taking unfair advantages all the time and you'd prefer to just go on your strategizing and scheming merry way without being called out by anybody.

I have been involved in sports my whole life and have run across more uneven situations than most people would want to believe. They are what they are. People push competitive situations in all sorts of weird directions for all different reasons. The thing is helicopter parents aren't the only ones who create uneven situations so focusing on them is not going to make any difference. Personally I love winning in those situations in spite of having the cards stack against us. I find that it really does make up for all those other times when you get hosed and can't win. What I do when I encounter a bad situation is I try to take my beating like a gentleman (not always easy, not always successfully) and vow never to go back. It is amazing though how much things come around and you actually do get a shot at redemption. Nothing like a 50+ beat down to say payback is a beach.

[Unregistered]

I have been involved in sports my whole life and have run across more uneven situations than most people would want to believe. They are what they are. People push competitive situations in all sorts of weird directions for all different reasons. The thing is helicopter parents aren't the only ones who create uneven situations so focusing on them is not going to make any difference. Personally I love winning in those situations in spite of having the cards stack against us. I find that it really does make up for all those other times when you get hosed and can't win. What I do when I encounter a bad situation is I try to take my beating like a gentleman (not always easy, not always successfully) and vow never to go back. It is amazing though how much things come around and you actually do get a shot at redemption. Nothing like a 50+ beat down to say payback is a beach.

I think you should both stay away from youth sports at all levels. Helicopter parents don't create "uneven situations" that work to their kids advantage. They create miserable kids and ticked off coaches. Good coaches and normal parents don't get even with these people. They feel sorry for their kids and try to steer clear of them. Ge hosed, can't win, beat down, payback?? You want to project that kind of virile against your rival pro team of choice, knock yourself out. That's what they are for. But kids soccer??? You're supposed to be a role model who gets the kids to win AND lose gracefully, who inspires them to play with heart and as a team no matter what. You sound more like a gang member going for revenge. Way to teach sportsmanship.

[Unregistered]

I think you should both stay away from youth sports at all levels. Helicopter parents don't create "uneven situations" that work to their kids advantage. They create miserable kids and ticked off coaches. Good coaches and normal parents don't get even with these people. They feel sorry for their kids and try to steer clear of them. Ge hosed, can't win, beat down, payback?? You want to project that kind of virile against your rival pro team of choice, knock yourself out. That's what they are for. But kids soccer??? You're supposed to be a role model who gets the kids to win AND lose gracefully, who inspires them to play with heart and as a team no matter what. You sound more like a gang member going for revenge. Way to teach sportsmanship.

Well said.