U13 Girls Spring Predictions Thread

[beentheredonethat]

The real issue to be talking about isn’t whether the ECNL path is better than the R1PL path but rather who should even be thinking about aspiring to that level of team. Honestly there are usually far more people at this stage worrying about which is the correct path than there are players who will benefit from going down one. The truth of the matter is that unless your kid is a standout player at this stage the likelihood of them being a college level prospect is only fair at best. The only kids that really benefit from either of the paths are those that project to be top of the team D1 and D2 level talent. What this really means is a kid who gets identified by one of the identification programs or at the very least one that gets put on (by someone other than their parent) the type of list everyone hated so much from last fall. The cold hard truth is that unless your kid is easily recognizable as a “player” at this stage they are not likely to benefit (ie get financial compensation) from being on a highly visible team. If you are on or considering joining one of the top level teams in this age group you really need to be pretty objective about your child’s true soccer potential before you go committing to spending what will become tens of thousands of dollars.

[Unregistered]

The real issue to be talking about isn’t whether the ECNL path is better than the R1PL path but rather who should even be thinking about aspiring to that level of team. Honestly there are usually far more people at this stage worrying about which is the correct path than there are players who will benefit from going down one. The truth of the matter is that unless your kid is a standout player at this stage the likelihood of them being a college level prospect is only fair at best. The only kids that really benefit from either of the paths are those that project to be top of the team D1 and D2 level talent. What this really means is a kid who gets identified by one of the identification programs or at the very least one that gets put on (by someone other than their parent) the type of list everyone hated so much from last fall. The cold hard truth is that unless your kid is easily recognizable as a “player” at this stage they are not likely to benefit (ie get financial compensation) from being on a highly visible team. If you are on or considering joining one of the top level teams in this age group you really need to be pretty objective about your child’s true soccer potential before you go committing to spending what will become tens of thousands of dollars.

BTDT, I respect the fact that you're willing to share your experiences. But let's be fair for a moment:

I should hardly have to remind you that puberty and the changes that particularly female athletes go through as a result can have a significant impact on strength, ability, performance, etc.

The "cold hard truth" as you say is in fact, your "cold hardopinion". It is absurd for you to suggest that if a kid hasn't been id'ed by u13 that they won't project to be D1 or D2 level talent.

I know you like to come across as some guru of soccer knowledge, but that one is just too absurd even for you!

[Unregistered]

A team ranked 190 is going to get coaches at major college showcases attending their games in 'high numbers' ?

Did you look at the rankings of CFC and Soccerplus's U18 teams that was given earlier?

They are ranked #244 and #116 and yet the lower ranked team has double the number of players headed to D1 programs. The rankings are meaningless in this new environment.

[Unregistered]

Did you look at the rankings of CFC and Soccerplus's U18 teams that was given earlier?

They are ranked #244 and #116 and yet the lower ranked team has double the number of players headed to D1 programs. The rankings are meaningless in this new environment.

They must not be aware of the fact that the got soccer ranks mean very little to ranking ECNL eams like CFC and Soccerplus. When they go to the showcase tournaments and play in the ECNL flights no got soccer points are awarded.

[Unregistered]

Wow, last I looked someone was asking about teams in the Springfield area and that evolved into a full blown battle over the merits of the ECNL. I am actually laughing pretty loudly remembering all the earlier denials and criticisms in this and the earlier thread about parents this age taking things too seriously or worrying about such things as college recruiting and factoring it in their decisions. Oh but I forgot, no one is making any decisions or leaving teams this year :)

Nice one BTDT! I actually laughed when I read your comment above.

The thing about the ECNL debate is the camps are pretty solidly entrenched in their beliefs and I seriously doubt that anyone who fervently believes in one approach or the other is likely to radically change their point of view. Everyone should understand that underneath it all this is really an argument with the Stars / Scorpions families on one side and the families from all of the other clubs in the area on the other side. Don't lose site of the fact that when a poster either defends or attacks the ECNL they are also defending or attacking those two clubs.

Absolutely correct, and we must not lose sight that by your definition you will be a mouthpiece for NEFC and will attack the ECNL clubs

I think that the big difference between the ECNL and R1PL paths is the amount of travel that is built into them. Make no mistake, both paths now include a whole bunch of travel. The only difference that I can see is that ECNL teams do more national level travelling for a longer period of time than your typical RIPL team.

This has been pointed out to you many times as a fallacy but still you persist. Take your own NEFC club vs the Stars club as the ECNL club. Already the U11 NEFC Arsenal have been to Spirit Classic in PA twice, Sereno (AZ) and Jefferson Cup (VA). They are at Jefferson Cup again this weekend. That's five expensive out of state tournaments. Stars U11s have yet to venture outside of Massachusetts!! At U12 the NEFC Gunners have already been to WAGS (DC), Jefferson Cup (VA), Spirit Classic (PA), Hempfield (PA) and head to PDA (NJ) next month. Stars U12s have been to Nashua in their only out of state venture.
Now tell me that ECNL teams do more travel for a longer period of time! Stars teams have a lot of catching up to do to match the travel costs of these non-ECNL NEFC teams.

In my mind the real debate about either of the paths is whether or not doing national level travel for a protracted period of time has any material impact on the likelihood of a prospect being recruited. I personally don't think so because I firmly believe that you can take a top level recruit from a R1PL team and switch them on to an ENCL team for the U16 year and it would have absolutely no negative impact on their recruitability. I also firmly believe that you could take a kid who travelled the ECNL path up to the U16 year and then put them on comparable R1PL team and it wouldn't change their recruitability one way or another either. I think that the question then becomes is the added expense of doing national level travel in the years leading up to the U16 year really worth it?

See above about ECNL vs non ECNL team travel. The question for me is whether the added expense of non-ECNL team travel at early ages (more protracted travel) in NEFC is worth it? Chasing the points is fine but ECNL teams don't have to chase points. They have guaranteed acceptance into ECNL tournaments. So, is it worth all that travel at early ages in NEFC to get to a point where you hope to get into major showcases? In your own words, "is the juice with the squeeze?".

Honestly I think the real danger in any of this is losing a roster spot on one of these heavy travel teams late in the game. This is where objectivity really comes into play. You had better be pretty darn sure what your kid's potential is and have them playing at the proper level or they very well could find themselves on the outside looking in late in the game. For this reason I think most families are better off taking the conservative approach and waiting until the prime recruiting years to make the decision whether or not to join a national travelling team. Realistically if your player is actually good enough to take advantage of national level exposure there will be a spot available for them when the time is right and if they can't make the team at that point it really wasn't going to make a difference anyways.

True, but rosters are always fluent and let's say as an example you are a decent keeper at an early age and could move to a destination team at that point. You can choose to stay where you are but also let's say that in the meantime that the destination team is actively looking for a keeper and gets one that they are perfectly happy with and keeper is no longer an issue. Your ability to move at the later ages has been compromised. There are as many examples of this scenario as there are the scenario you present above.

It's not that I disagree with you that excessive travel is wrong. I absolutely do. But for the sake of balance, it is not just a case of ECNL = more travel, as your blanket statements suggest.

[Unregistered]

Nice one BTDT! I actually laughed when I read your comment above.



Absolutely correct, and we must not lose sight that by your definition you will be a mouthpiece for NEFC and will attack the ECNL clubs



This has been pointed out to you many times as a fallacy but still you persist. Take your own NEFC club vs the Stars club as the ECNL club. Already the U11 NEFC Arsenal have been to Spirit Classic in PA twice, Sereno (AZ) and Jefferson Cup (VA). They are at Jefferson Cup again this weekend. That's five expensive out of state tournaments. Stars U11s have yet to venture outside of Massachusetts!! At U12 the NEFC Gunners have already been to WAGS (DC), Jefferson Cup (VA), Spirit Classic (PA), Hempfield (PA) and head to PDA (NJ) next month. Stars U12s have been to Nashua in their only out of state venture.
Now tell me that ECNL teams do more travel for a longer period of time! Stars teams have a lot of catching up to do to match the travel costs of these non-ECNL NEFC teams.



See above about ECNL vs non ECNL team travel. The question for me is whether the added expense of non-ECNL team travel at early ages (more protracted travel) in NEFC is worth it? Chasing the points is fine but ECNL teams don't have to chase points. They have guaranteed acceptance into ECNL tournaments. So, is it worth all that travel at early ages in NEFC to get to a point where you hope to get into major showcases? In your own words, "is the juice with the squeeze?".



True, but rosters are always fluent and let's say as an example you are a decent keeper at an early age and could move to a destination team at that point. You can choose to stay where you are but also let's say that in the meantime that the destination team is actively looking for a keeper and gets one that they are perfectly happy with and keeper is no longer an issue. Your ability to move at the later ages has been compromised. There are as many examples of this scenario as there are the scenario you present above.

It's not that I disagree with you that excessive travel is wrong. I absolutely do. But for the sake of balance, it is not just a case of ECNL = more travel, as your blanket statements suggest.

Great post. Too funny when someone throws BTDT's points back at him. Then his attempts to wiggle free are always classic. He's almost as bad as the Big O.

[Unregistered]

This has been pointed out to you many times as a fallacy but still you persist. Take your own NEFC club vs the Stars club as the ECNL club. Already the U11 NEFC Arsenal have been to Spirit Classic in PA twice, Sereno (AZ) and Jefferson Cup (VA). They are at Jefferson Cup again this weekend. That's five expensive out of state tournaments. Stars U11s have yet to venture outside of Massachusetts!! At U12 the NEFC Gunners have already been to WAGS (DC), Jefferson Cup (VA), Spirit Classic (PA), Hempfield (PA) and head to PDA (NJ) next month. Stars U12s have been to Nashua in their only out of state venture.
Now tell me that ECNL teams do more travel for a longer period of time! Stars teams have a lot of catching up to do to match the travel costs of these non-ECNL NEFC teams.

Yikes. My daughter is now playing in a mid-level D1 college, enjoying soccer, and getting a great education. Thank god we didn't have to begin extensive travel at such young ages. Town soccer 10 weeks a year, as well as playing other sports and attending summer camp worked fine for her. She moved to a "destination" team at U15. You all are bonkers.

[Unregistered]

Yikes. My daughter is now playing in a mid-level D1 college, enjoying soccer, and getting a great education. Thank god we didn't have to begin extensive travel at such young ages. Town soccer 10 weeks a year, as well as playing other sports and attending summer camp worked fine for her. She moved to a "destination" team at U15. You all are bonkers.

Times, they are a changin.

[Unregistered]

Times, they are a changin.

We are all victims of the war between US Club Soccer and USYSA. It is as simple as that. Bring back the old days. It was much lass stressful and much less costly.

[beentheredonethat]

BTDT, I respect the fact that you're willing to share your experiences. But let's be fair for a moment:

I should hardly have to remind you that puberty and the changes that particularly female athletes go through as a result can have a significant impact on strength, ability, performance, etc.

The "cold hard truth" as you say is in fact, your "cold hard opinion". It is absurd for you to suggest that if a kid hasn't been id'ed by u13 that they won't project to be D1 or D2 level talent.

I know you like to come across as some guru of soccer knowledge, but that one is just too absurd even for you!

I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree. I have you pegged as either a coach who is selling dreams or a parent who has drank a whole lot of Koolaide and is trying to justify their faith in that sort of dream.

Here is where your position doesn't really hold water. While I absolutely agree that puberty does have an impact on things the world of youth sports has changed so much that the impact you seem to be looking for from it really doesn't happen any longer. In prior generations kids played pick up sports pretty much right up to high school. It wasn't rare at all for a kid like a Michael Jordan to get cut from his freshman team only to emerge a year or so later as a star. Back then there really wasn't any sort structure to youth sports much less an id process. In today's world almost everthing is very structured and kids get identified very early in the game. You can go to just about any town program in any sport and someone can give you a list of the "best" players in that sport in that town by the 4th or 5th grade. I agree that doesn't necessarily guarantee anything but the problem that gets created is the kids who are not on that list typically get dropped down on to the lesser teams and never really get the coaching they need to compete with the kids that are on the list. It is actually more likely that the kid will end up quitting the sport than emerge as a D1 level scholarship prospect years down the road. Without the coaching they will not likely develop the skill foundation they would need to be a top of the line prospect and if you disagree with this notion you would need to go back and argue with all academy level coaches who are telling parents this is exactly why they need to get their kid involved at the age of 6.

The other thing about puberty is it is actually happening right now or is immenent for most of the girls in this age group. If you read any kind of medical literature on the subject you will find out that girls are maturing earlier and earlier. Unlike the boys this is the time when they get that big growth spurt and their muscles begin to transition to adult muscles. This is when that pop in athleticsim you are looking for happens not in the 9th grade. That being the case, if a girl where going to come out of no where to be identified it would more than likely happen this year or next year at the latest.

Now I will grant you that it is possible for a kid to just show up and get identified. That probably happens occasionally but I would bet that it is more a function of their choices and the programs they participated in rather than the rate of their development. Possible scenarios I could think of are a kid who relocates to the area who has been playing a lot of soccer but hasn't been participating in things like ODP or club soccer as we know it. Different states have different soccer structures and that can really skew things. Another possibility I could see is one of those kids you see playing pick up soccer in the parks deciding to give club soccer a try but I bet that happens more on the boys side than the girls. Outside of stuff like that I seriously doubt that some kid who really hasn't played much soccer is is just going to pop up and be able to jump on the college recruiting band wagon at 15 or 16.

I stand by my statement that in this realm of club soccer that a kid who is a role player at 13 is UNLIKELY to jump up the food chart significantly to become a high level college prospect. The word I stress is unlikely. Can kids pop up some and get to the college game by hard work. Sure, I actually see that all the time in basketball but they are not going to scholarship programs. Those kids in soccer typically end up at D3 programs along with the vast majority of starting level talent from high school aged club teams. The kids that go on to scholarship programs are the ones who will have demonstrated well before hand that they have the ability to not only dominate at their age level but actually have the ability to play up a year or so and stand out from the crowd at that level as well. These sorts of kids typically don't just appear out of no where so given the state of youth soccer and the evolution of young girls I don't think it is absurd at all to suggest that if a kid isn't at least on the radar screen at this point the chances are slim that they are going to go on to a college scholarship.

[Unregistered]

We all base our opinions and beliefs on personal experience. Just because your daughter has already been identified and has already demonstrated the ability to compete up in age doesn't mean that others are incapable of doing so later in their develop lifecycle, especially when you're talking about 13 years old. Man, the youth soccer spectrum must look awfully nice from where you sit.

[beentheredonethat]

Absolutely correct, and we must not lose sight that by your definition you will be a mouthpiece for NEFC and will attack the ECNL club

I guess you just don't comprehend the written word all that well do you. Where did I criticize your club? Just because I express an opinion that differs from yours all of a sudden I am an NEFC shill. You are the classic example of what I am writing about. Honestly we have been with enough clubs to know none of them are the perfect fit for everyone and that each club has its own set of issues and problems. NEFC is no different and I would actually find it quite hard to "shill" for it or any club for that matter. Expressing opinions that substantiate personal choices is hardly "shilling". Isn't it exactly what you are doing?

This has been pointed out to you many times as a fallacy but still you persist. Take your own NEFC club vs the Stars club as the ECNL club. Already the U11 NEFC Arsenal have been to Spirit Classic in PA twice, Sereno (AZ) and Jefferson Cup (VA). They are at Jefferson Cup again this weekend. That's five expensive out of state tournaments. Stars U11s have yet to venture outside of Massachusetts!! At U12 the NEFC Gunners have already been to WAGS (DC), Jefferson Cup (VA), Spirit Classic (PA), Hempfield (PA) and head to PDA (NJ) next month. Stars U12s have been to Nashua in their only out of state venture. Now tell me that ECNL teams do more travel for a longer period of time! Stars teams have a lot of catching up to do to match the travel costs of these non-ECNL NEFC teams.

Did you actually read what I wrote or are you so bent on proving that travel is the norm that you can't understand that I recognize that all these top level aspirants now travel extensively. The distinction I make is between national level and regional level travel and I don't limit my opinion to just ECNL teams because I recognize that there are R1PL teams that are effectively doing that sort of travel also. The point that I am making is that I don't believe that the extensive and portracted travel really makes any difference. That is not targeted specifically at ECNL organizations.

See above about ECNL vs non ECNL team travel. The question for me is whether the added expense of non-ECNL team travel at early ages (more protracted travel) in NEFC is worth it? Chasing the points is fine but ECNL teams don't have to chase points. They have guaranteed acceptance into ECNL tournaments. So, is it worth all that travel at early ages in NEFC to get to a point where you hope to get into major showcases? In your own words, "is the juice with the squeeze?".

True, but rosters are always fluent and let's say as an example you are a decent keeper at an early age and could move to a destination team at that point. You can choose to stay where you are but also let's say that in the meantime that the destination team is actively looking for a keeper and gets one that they are perfectly happy with and keeper is no longer an issue. Your ability to move at the later ages has been compromised. There are as many examples of this scenario as there are the scenario you present above.

You haven't understood my point because this is not all that far off from what I have been writing. What I have found is that at the end of the day, if your kid is a top level prospect travelling to all the showcase tournaments is not all that necessary because the best of the best in each age group typically are discovered through other means (ODP, ID2 etc) and get snapped up very early in the game. The rest of the D1 level prospects are really only getting looked at late in their sophomore and into the early part of their junior years so they really don't benefit much from travelling very early and since most kids stay fairly local (within a 300 mile radius) most of them don't really need to go all over the place to be seen by the coaches they want to be seen by. As far as teams getting into tournaments, that is a mute point because the players will just migrate to the 1 or 2 teams that will have the resume to get into them. That is what a destination team is all about. I actually believe that there will be both and ECNL and R1PL destination team. Unfortunately your point about roster spots is just wishful thinking. If your kid is really a true top college level prospect they are not going to get turned down by the destination teams. I grant you that you may not get your first choice but if you kid really is that good they are not going to be on the outside looking in. The issue really only pops up with the marginal players that are not able to seperate themselves from the pack. Quite frankly you need to consider that if they are not able to seperate themselves at the club level that unless lightening strikes they are not LIKELY benefit much from being on the team. That is where you need to start asking whether the juice is worth the squeeze.

It's not that I disagree with you that excessive travel is wrong. I absolutely do. But for the sake of balance, it is not just a case of ECNL = more travel, as your blanket statements suggest.

Let me clarify. It most certainly is not an ECNL thing. I actually do recognize that teams on both side are travelling more and more. Regardless of the path they are on, I don't think that many players at all benefit from national level travel and can barely justify the extensive and protracted regional level travel that is now in vogue. Believe it or not, that opinion is not directed at any one entity.

[Unregistered]

I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree. I have you pegged as either a coach who is selling dreams or a parent who has drank a whole lot of Koolaide and is trying to justify their faith in that sort of dream.

Here is where your position doesn't really hold water. While I absolutely agree that puberty does have an impact on things the world of youth sports have changed so much that the impact you seem to be looking for from it really doesn't happen any longer. In prior generations kids played pick up sports pretty much right up to high school. It wasn't rare at all for a kid like a Michael Jordan to get cut from his freshman team only to emerge a year or so later as a star. Back then there really wasn't any sort structure to youth sports much less an id process. In today's world almost everthing is very structured and kids get identified very early in the game. You can go to just about any town program in any sport and someone can give you a list of the "best" players in that sport in that town by the 4th or 5th grade. I agree that doesn't necessarily guarantee anything but the problem that gets created is the kids who are not on that list typically get dropped down on to the lesser teams and never really get the coaching they need to compete with the kids that are on the list. It is actually more likely that the kid will end up quitting the sport than emerge as a D1 level scholarship prospect years down the road. Without the coaching they will not likely develop the skill foundation they would need to be a top of the line prospect and if you disagree with this notion you would need to go back and argue with all academy level coaches who are telling parents this is exactly why they need to get their kid involved at the age of 6.

The other thing about puberty is it is actually happening right now or is immenent for most of the girls in this age group. If you read any kind of medical literature on the subject you will find out that girls are maturing earlier and earlier. Unlike the boys this is the time when they get that big growth spurt and their muscles begin to transition to adult muscles. This is when that pop in athleticsim you are looking for happens not in the 9th grade. That being the case, if a girl where going to come out of no where to be identified it would more than likely happen this year or next year at the latest.

Now I will grant you that it is possible for a kid to just show up and get identified. That probably happens occasionally but I would bet that it is more a function of their choices and the programs they participated in rather than the rate of their development. Possible scenarios I could think of are a kid who relocates to the area who has been playing a lot of soccer but hasn't been participating in things like ODP or club soccer as we know it. Different states have different soccer structures and that can really skew things. Another possibility I could see is one of those kids you see playing pick up soccer in the parks deciding to give club soccer a try but I bet that happens more on the boys side than the girls. Outside of stuff like that I seriously doubt that some kid who really hasn't played much soccer is is just going to pop up and be able to jump on the college recruiting band wagon at 15 or 16.

I stand by my statement that in this realm of club soccer that a kid who is a role player at 13 is UNLIKELY to jump up the food chart significantly to become a high level college prospect. The word I stress is unlikely. Can kids pop up some and get to the college game by hard work. Sure, I actually see that all the time in basketball but they are not going to scholarship programs. Those kids in soccer typically end up at D3 programs along with the vast majority of starting level talent from high school aged club teams. The kids that go on to scholarship programs are the ones who will have demonstrated well before hand that they have the ability to not only dominate at their age level but actually have the ability to play up a year or so and stand out from the crowd at that level as well. These sorts of kids typically don't just appear out of no where so given the state of youth soccer and the evolution of young girls I don't think it is absurd at all to suggest that if a kid isn't at least on the radar screen at this point the chances are slim that they are going to go on to a college scholarship.

Translation: my daughter was identified as a star at U13 and will remain a star through college.

[Unregistered]

They must not be aware of the fact that the got soccer ranks mean very little to ranking ECNL eams like CFC and Soccerplus. When they go to the showcase tournaments and play in the ECNL flights no got soccer points are awarded.

Exactly part of the problem as we move forward, but as far as U18 teams are concerned, they were still part of the old system. ECNL hasn't significantly changed the GS rankings of the 2 Mass clubs playing in the league. Stars are ranked #17, Scorpions ranked #33. So one would have to ask, how could a team nationally ranked #244 possibly place 18 players in D1 programs?

[Unregistered]

Exactly part of the problem as we move forward, but as far as U18 teams are concerned, they were still part of the old system. ECNL hasn't significantly changed the GS rankings of the 2 Mass clubs playing in the league. Stars are ranked #17, Scorpions ranked #33. So one would have to ask, how could a team nationally ranked #244 possibly place 18 players in D1 programs?

GS rankings are flawed.