Needham Girls HS Hazing

[Unregistered]

What makes me scratch my head is the parents today who grew up in the 60's to 80's, had their bell rung when they did something stupid or faced consequences of their actions are the same ones who have seemed to forgotten that and are protecting their snowflakes.

Parents of privilege have run interference for their offspring since the beginning of recorded time and has continued until the present.

[Unregistered]

First off, everybody on here wants to talk about their glory days from the 60's and 70's when sports were basically irrelevant and Gatorade wasn't even around. As a student athlete on the high school level and college level we are warned about hazing the second we make that team. At the high school level each player is required to sign a hazing form at the beginning of the season. With facebook and the technology around today it was impossible to keep something like this in-house, because then you even have channel 4 sniffing there noses around the social media networks. That's what happens when you come from these wealthy towns, everyone thinks they're entitled to something and can get away with it. How disgusting these parents would even stand up for their own kids just to get them on a soccer field that night.

Keep bashing the 60's -70's. When I played football there was definitely hazing going on during summer camp. I witnessed it and said nothing. What was the coach's response when discovered? The entire team was basically tortured for two days. Run and push sleds till you puked. Team captains removed for failure to lead and new captains picked. 0 Tolerance


After that I do not believe there was an instance of hazing for the next three years while I was at that school and probably years after. Nowadays this same coach would have lost his job. You can keep your new pc world. I will always look fondly on those years when I was taught that there can be consequnces for your actions/inaction.

[HS Harry]

Harry,

Interesting- do you have inside information regarding exactly what the coach knew, when he knew it and whether he reported it or not? I enjoy your posts and you are obviously well informed (and you may very well be right that termination could be an appropriate response), but personally I would want more definitive factual information before I posted that view in a public forum (and I have no connection to Needham or the coach).

That was an opinion based on the public information available. It is my understanding that the incident happened at a practice. Whether the coach was there or not (and I imagine that he was), he is ultimately responsible for what goes on at his practices. I'm willing to make excuses and explainations for HS students that show incredibly awful judgment. But it is the coach that bears responsibility for events that happen at a practice and that cannot be excused. I would be willing to take that hard of a line - even if it was determined that this coach had no personal information about the incident and didn't fail to notify the AD, or worse yet, covered up the event for a few days. You are right, we don't know exactly what happened, but if it happened at practice, in my world and for what its worth, he would be done.

[Unregistered]

It's now national news. Check out MSNBC.com.

This will be fodder for Leno and Letterman... Petco's sold out of collars...

Sad thing is this isn't just a Needham problem. My kids program was saturated in the Kiss-up, kick-down culture, but it changed for the better.

[Unregistered]

One of the greatest movies started out with evidence of hazing: Brian's Song, the story of Brian Piccollo and Gale Sayers with the Chicago Bears.
Hazing is not new and certainly not isolated to the Needham High Girls team.
While you can argue the harm or harmlessness over what was done all day and night, the bottom line is that recently place rules/laws were broken and now they have a penalty to pay.
The question is what should the penalty be. For the girls, they were suspended and did not play in the game. After that, I suppose community service could be performed. However, that should be the end of it. There is no reason to keep them out of school and punish them academically. There is no reason why they can't be allowed to move on and attend whatever college they were planning on attending.

As for the coach......now that is the one who is open to greater penalty as this had become a tradition and he certainly knew what went on and has done nothing to discourage it.

[Unregistered]

I talked to my ISL HS soccer player about this (boy,) and he dismissed it as totally out of hand. He said there is no hazing at his school and that it's not even a consideration. Zero tolerance. You'd be expelled, the coach would be fired, etc. He looked at me as if I had popped out of a time machine to tell him how important it was for women to be given the right to vote.

To me, his reaction underlined the disconnect here between schools that consider hazing to be part of the accepted status quo and those schools that have moved on and consider hazing part of a dying, male dominated culture that is being swept away by history.

Dying is the key word here. Whenever traditions, no matter how unhealthy, are dismantled, there will always be those who fight to keep them. To admit some traditional behavior needs to go is to admit it was wrong in the first place. That's always makes some people very defensive.

It's time for Needham to wake up. This is a far greater issue for the school than one coach or one team.

Way too much sanity on this thread. I'm going to go read the BU12 Maple posts and get my crazies fix.

[Unregistered]

Stupidest thing these parents could have done - go to court. At best if the court had allowed the girls to play (which would have been a BAD decision) then the new coach appointed by the school would have left them on the bench. If they had lived with the suspension then it would be over completely. Now these parents have made it a national debate. I certainly hope all the kids being suspended and their families were fully on board with the request for the injuction and that none of them are being "punished" for going to court if they weren't actually plaintiffs.

[Unregistered]

One of the greatest movies started out with evidence of hazing: Brian's Song, the story of Brian Piccollo and Gale Sayers with the Chicago Bears.
Hazing is not new and certainly not isolated to the Needham High Girls team.
While you can argue the harm or harmlessness over what was done all day and night, the bottom line is that recently place rules/laws were broken and now they have a penalty to pay.
The question is what should the penalty be. For the girls, they were suspended and did not play in the game. After that, I suppose community service could be performed. However, that should be the end of it. There is no reason to keep them out of school and punish them academically. There is no reason why they can't be allowed to move on and attend whatever college they were planning on attending.

As for the coach......now that is the one who is open to greater penalty as this had become a tradition and he certainly knew what went on and has done nothing to discourage it.

I would agree. I am an advocate of a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to enforcement, but the punishment handed out should be more discriminating. These players were banned from participation, suspended and may or may not perform community service - those are appropriate punishments. Anything beyond that is completely disproportionate relative to the offense committed (which in the end, was a relatively harmless albeit humiliating). Let's not lose all perspective here.

- Odie

[Unregistered]

First off, everybody on here wants to talk about their glory days from the 60's and 70's when sports were basically irrelevant and Gatorade wasn't even around. As a student athlete on the high school level and college level we are warned about hazing the second we make that team. At the high school level each player is required to sign a hazing form at the beginning of the season. With facebook and the technology around today it was impossible to keep something like this in-house, because then you even have channel 4 sniffing there noses around the social media networks. That's what happens when you come from these wealthy towns, everyone thinks they're entitled to something and can get away with it. How disgusting these parents would even stand up for their own kids just to get them on a soccer field that night.

I think you miss the point. We as a society are more worried about the next incident and the liability from that than we are with the case at hand. There are going to be huge consequences here to all parties involved - even the kids that got hazed. Not to say what happened was ok, but these consequences ultimately will be far in excess of a slightly bloodied nose, some scratches and a dose of humiliation. There is talk of the kids facing criminal charges and losing any scholarships. That is a pretty hefty price for being stupid.

These are kids. All of us know that our teenagers make really dumb choices all the time. There is actually a physiological foundation for it. This is not something new and stupid pranks have been going on probably since the cave man days. The thing that all of us seem to forget however was that it was never considered a bright thing to do. It was always seen as stupid. The big difference was back then if you did something stupid, you probably got something like a whack on the back of the head and your family got to meter out punishment. Today that power is taken away and stupidity is treated as a social lesson. People are essentially talking about making an example of these kids and I find myself saying "why, just so we can scare your kid into not doing the exact same stupid thing?" I can't believe that the only solution here is to vilify these kids and ruin their futures.

The really sad thing here is the principal. Let me tell you that my daughter played here and this incident grows out of a long standing tradition. If I remember correctly the event is tied to getting into the tournament and is done every year they get in. What I find interesting is the fact that this event was happening has never been a mystery. Everyone knows about it, but it was never a big deal because no one ever took offense to it. Now somebody has and the reaction is astonishing. It is like someone farted in church. The principal is getting all PC here and we should realize that he has turned as much a blind eye to this as all of the other adults have. The thing that nauseates me is all he is doing is saving his butt by pushing the kids out in front of the bus. He's afraid of the liability so now he is going to take a stand. Please recognize that all of this is deflecting attention from him and the fact that it happened on his watch. You also need to think about this guy as a human being. What a great educator he is and what a great example he sets for the kids. He clearly has forgotten that people are supposed to learn from their mistakes, but his pension is safe.

As someone who occasionally has farted in church I have an awful lot of sympathy for the kids here, I know I will light a candle for all them.

[Unregistered]

scholarship impact

By some accounts, some players involved were being recruited. (It doesn't mater what division)

What happens now with the admissions process and recruitment process? Does the HS need to notify all schools that have been applied to, or will be applied to? Who notifies the college coach that there was an incident?

IMO, the school did the right thing, but the parents did not. As a parent of a 2011 student athlete, not going to be playing in college, we keep saying that even though you think the application process is almost done, it really isn't until you move in next August, and even then you can't do something stupid while on campus.

[Unregistered]

I think you miss the point. We as a society are more worried about the next incident and the liability from that than we are with the case at hand. There are going to be huge consequences here to all parties involved - even the kids that got hazed. Not to say what happened was ok, but these consequences ultimately will be far in excess of a slightly bloodied nose, some scratches and a dose of humiliation. There is talk of the kids facing criminal charges and losing any scholarships. That is a pretty hefty price for being stupid.

These are kids. All of us know that our teenagers make really dumb choices all the time. There is actually a physiological foundation for it. This is not something new and stupid pranks have been going on probably since the cave man days. The thing that all of us seem to forget however was that it was never considered a bright thing to do. It was always seen as stupid. The big difference was back then if you did something stupid, you probably got something like a whack on the back of the head and your family got to meter out punishment. Today that power is taken away and stupidity is treated as a social lesson. People are essentially talking about making an example of these kids and I find myself saying "why, just so we can scare your kid into not doing the exact same stupid thing?" I can't believe that the only solution here is to vilify these kids and ruin their futures.

The really sad thing here is the principal. Let me tell you that my daughter played here and this incident grows out of a long standing tradition. If I remember correctly the event is tied to getting into the tournament and is done every year they get in. What I find interesting is the fact that this event was happening has never been a mystery. Everyone knows about it, but it was never a big deal because no one ever took offense to it. Now somebody has and the reaction is astonishing. It is like someone farted in church. The principal is getting all PC here and we should realize that he has turned as much a blind eye to this as all of the other adults have. The thing that nauseates me is all he is doing is saving his butt by pushing the kids out in front of the bus. He's afraid of the liability so now he is going to take a stand. Please recognize that all of this is deflecting attention from him and the fact that it happened on his watch. You also need to think about this guy as a human being. What a great educator he is and what a great example he sets for the kids. He clearly has forgotten that people are supposed to learn from their mistakes, but his pension is safe.

As someone who occasionally has farted in church I have an awful lot of sympathy for the kids here, I know I will light a candle for all them.

Holy crap, lets blame the principle now. So this is how the residents of Needham think?

[Unregistered]

That was an opinion based on the public information available. It is my understanding that the incident happened at a practice. Whether the coach was there or not (and I imagine that he was), he is ultimately responsible for what goes on at his practices. I'm willing to make excuses and explainations for HS students that show incredibly awful judgment. But it is the coach that bears responsibility for events that happen at a practice and that cannot be excused. I would be willing to take that hard of a line - even if it was determined that this coach had no personal information about the incident and didn't fail to notify the AD, or worse yet, covered up the event for a few days. You are right, we don't know exactly what happened, but if it happened at practice, in my world and for what its worth, he would be done.

This happened at practice? If this is true that is bad judgement to a new level.

[Unregistered]

crazy times we live in

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40106359

So parents of the freshman are standing by the accused?

[Unregistered]

I think you miss the point. We as a society are more worried about the next incident and the liability from that than we are with the case at hand. There are going to be huge consequences here to all parties involved - even the kids that got hazed. Not to say what happened was ok, but these consequences ultimately will be far in excess of a slightly bloodied nose, some scratches and a dose of humiliation. There is talk of the kids facing criminal charges and losing any scholarships. That is a pretty hefty price for being stupid.

These are kids. All of us know that our teenagers make really dumb choices all the time. There is actually a physiological foundation for it. This is not something new and stupid pranks have been going on probably since the cave man days. The thing that all of us seem to forget however was that it was never considered a bright thing to do. It was always seen as stupid. The big difference was back then if you did something stupid, you probably got something like a whack on the back of the head and your family got to meter out punishment. Today that power is taken away and stupidity is treated as a social lesson. People are essentially talking about making an example of these kids and I find myself saying "why, just so we can scare your kid into not doing the exact same stupid thing?" I can't believe that the only solution here is to vilify these kids and ruin their futures.

The really sad thing here is the principal. Let me tell you that my daughter played here and this incident grows out of a long standing tradition. If I remember correctly the event is tied to getting into the tournament and is done every year they get in. What I find interesting is the fact that this event was happening has never been a mystery. Everyone knows about it, but it was never a big deal because no one ever took offense to it. Now somebody has and the reaction is astonishing. It is like someone farted in church. The principal is getting all PC here and we should realize that he has turned as much a blind eye to this as all of the other adults have. The thing that nauseates me is all he is doing is saving his butt by pushing the kids out in front of the bus. He's afraid of the liability so now he is going to take a stand. Please recognize that all of this is deflecting attention from him and the fact that it happened on his watch. You also need to think about this guy as a human being. What a great educator he is and what a great example he sets for the kids. He clearly has forgotten that people are supposed to learn from their mistakes, but his pension is safe.

As someone who occasionally has farted in church I have an awful lot of sympathy for the kids here, I know I will light a candle for all them.

Dear Fellow Needham Resident;

You are without doubt part of the problem in this town. Blame the principal? What about the coach? Who created the situation? This isn't PC this is doing his job and by doing his job he is in a living hell right now dealing the press and all the A-hole parents in the town. The easy thing to do would be to turn a blind eye to this and this coach.

[Unregistered]

It's now national news. Check out MSNBC.com.

You can thank Coach T and TW for that. They do not come out of this looking good at all.