game coaches vs training coaches

Does anyone have any reasonable perspective or thoughts on whether some coaches are better at training than in managing games?

Let's go with the assumption that we are talking about U14 and up and that wins and losses do matter.

My kid has had a few different coaches, even within the same club, and it seems that while all have good training techniques, for the most part, there is some disparity in the ability of one coach to actually manage the game for a win as opposed to another coach who just cannot bring the same group of players to the same level of (winning) play.

Observations? What would cause this phenomenon?

Age group?

[Cujo]

Re: game coaches vs training coaches

Does anyone have any reasonable perspective or thoughts on whether some coaches are better at training than in managing games?

Let's go with the assumption that we are talking about U14 and up and that wins and losses do matter.

My kid has had a few different coaches, even within the same club, and it seems that while all have good training techniques, for the most part, there is some disparity in the ability of one coach to actually manage the game for a win as opposed to another coach who just cannot bring the same group of players to the same level of (winning) play.

Observations? What would cause this phenomenon?

Very hard to say since people may have different definitions of what constitutes "good" training. Some may think a coach that has players juggling and volleying for 30 minutes is providing good training. If you can, describe the elements of what you consider to be a good training standard and then the coaches that post in here (the few that are left) can comment on the session. Personally I think alot of coaches do not pay enough attention to finishing and set plays. At the older youth levels about 1/3 of all goals are scored on set plays and another 1/3 are scored on balls at waist level or above. Many are ugly, scrambly goals.

Re: game coaches vs training coaches

Very hard to say since people may have different definitions of what constitutes "good" training. <SNIP>

I'd try to argue that it depends on what that particular team needs at that particular time, maybe they are not shooting well vs. not developing good shots, or not adjusting to what the opposition does within the game, or, not supporting each other, or having fitness issues, or whatever...different teams need different things at different times and there are always multiple opinions of what's needed, and probably more than one is correct...good coaching is cumulative and intangible

Well if you can assume the training is decent, then why can one coach take the same team at the same time to a win while another can't? I really believe this is true. My favorite is the coaches who throw all the big bodies in at the end of a game hoping to score a needed goal or simply knock down the other team's offense while more proficient technical players are on the bench. It happens all the time and leaves me shaking my head (my kid is in the middle of the pack size wise so it's not personal with me... except when the team loses because of it).

Well if you can assume the training is decent, then why can one coach take the same team at the same time to a win while another can't? I really believe this is true. My favorite is the coaches who throw all the big bodies in at the end of a game hoping to score a needed goal or simply knock down the other team's offense while more proficient technical players are on the bench. It happens all the time and leaves me shaking my head (my kid is in the middle of the pack size wise so it's not personal with me... except when the team loses because of it).

You've just described my kid's coach.

[SoccerPhoenix]

This topic brings up an interesting point... especially with the u12 & playing time thread...What is more important for your child, consistant, skill developing training...or winning games.. Especially at the u13 and lower...what truly is more important....?

Well the question was specifically asked for ages U14 and up and presumes what you are suggesting - that wins/losses count for little at the younger ages. From 14 & up, presumably the W/L are more important for a team. And that is how the question was phrased - assume wins are important.

[Cujo]

Well the question was specifically asked for ages U14 and up and presumes what you are suggesting - that wins/losses count for little at the younger ages. From 14 & up, presumably the W/L are more important for a team. And that is how the question was phrased - assume wins are important.

I think the most important thing is whether the team is making progress during the year. First of all you want close games. This means the team is being challenged. Secondly you want to see a trend during the year that shows that they know how to build a lead, maintain a lead, or rally in the final minutes of a game to overcome a deficit. How do they fare against teams later in the year that they played earlier. The team you play in the early part of the season may not be the same opponent you see later. Teams change during the course of a season. Ideally the coach spends a good part of his time working on the tactical and technical deficiencies his team displays during a game. Additionally it is important for the team to be match fit and mentally fit. So many factors go into what you do during a season but given the tight time frame it is important to understand that their are limitations on what you can improve. Finally, you as a coach are only as good as your players are.

I witnessed this on quite a few teams for the last few years. There are those that are great technical coaches that are exceptional at running practices that help players improve ball mastery, dribbling, shooting/finishing, etc. These same coaches often struggle to make adjustments in games and somtimes really seem to just not see what seems like a simple change that will help their team win.

Not sure why it happens, but I think the clubs often make the mistake of taking what they consider to be their best technical coaches and putting them with the older, more talented teams...and they fail. The most vital time for learning the foundations from coaches with these strengths is in the early years...a strong tactical coach should be with the older teams, where the fundamentals are present and things such as speed of play and game management need to be accelerated.

If you are lucky enough to find a coach who is able to do both, congratulations.

[. Finally, you as a coach are only as good as your players are.

Of course you are correct, Cujo, but it doesn't explain why the same group of players will succeed with one coach at the helm but fail with another (game situations). And I think that does happen. You seem to be saying it all comes back to training in the end, which is likely true. In thinking about this a bit, I also think that the approach of the coach from the emotional/psychological aspect comes into play. If the players are playing fearful of the making mistakes and/or coach's reprimand, they will play much worse. I do think that is a contributing factor to the equation.

Also agree with previous guest that the best coaches can do both technical and tactical adjustments with any given team. I also concur that they are few and far between.

[Cujo]

[. Finally, you as a coach are only as good as your players are.

Of course you are correct, Cujo, but it doesn't explain why the same group of players will succeed with one coach at the helm but fail with another (game situations). And I think that does happen. You seem to be saying it all comes back to training in the end, which is likely true. In thinking about this a bit, I also think that the approach of the coach from the emotional/psychological aspect comes into play. If the players are playing fearful of the making mistakes and/or coach's reprimand, they will play much worse. I do think that is a contributing factor to the equation.

Also agree with previous guest that the best coaches can do both technical and tactical adjustments with any given team. I also concur that they are few and far between.

I think for the best teams a coach should reasonably expect that at age U15 and up that his core players are technically proficient (not finished but proficient.......) that you need to spend very little time on pure technical issues but are dealing with them from the aspect of how technical proficiency can be used to support your tactical game. Coaching U12's therefore is very very different from coaching the older players. The mentality issue is part of the mistake trap that coaches push their players into. Too many coaches try to think for their players. As a ref I have absolutely had my fill this year of the endless bappity bappity bappity banter emanating from the sidelines. Sometimes I just want to scream "SHUT THE EFF UP AND LET THEM PLAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - I saw one club player U12 - so confused by the endless stream of directives coming from parents, players, and coaches that he was absolutely miserable. He was frozen and afraid to do ANYTHING.

You work on your game prep during training, develop several styles of situational play, work on your set pieces and then let it rip - adjust at halftime evaluate and adjust for the next game. Lather rinse repeat. I know in HS that many of my opponents were not prepared to see variations on set pieces. We had about 3 to 4 core plays set up for Corners, Dk's and IDK's. During our best year goals scored on IDK's and Corners that our opponents were not tactically prepared for gave us the edge over our primarly rival and resulted in a conference title. We spent alot of time rehearsing them and practicing them until the players knew them like the back of their hand. As a coach your goal should be to outwork your opponent before and during the game. Talent will only get you so far.

During your 90 minute training session there is an awful lot that you need to get done. If you are spending 60 minutes a practice doing technical stuff at U16 how much other stuff can you possibly work on??

There are managers. There are coaches. And then there are teachers.

The managers job is to win games. The coaches job is to prepare for games. The teachers job is to teach the game.

Which would you prefer for your child?