Sounders relationship to local clubs

[Unregistered]

Greetings from your neighbors to the south!

Someone in the Oregon forum posted a link to this article https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/...-bearing-fruit on the Sounders academy, and we're more than a bit jealous down here. The Timbers academy system is nowhere near as productive. Some of this seems to be related simply to the size of the talent pool (the population of the Portland metro area from Salem to Vancouver, WA is about 2.5M, the Seattle metro from Tacoma to Everett is 3.5M). Some of it probably is club attitude--the Timbers seem to view the academy as something they HAVE to do rather than WANT to do, and the investment from the club is correspondingly smaller.

But there's a lot of whispers that the Timbers are unhappy with the quality of players coming from the local club scene, and view their academy as drilling a dry well. And there is certainly a lot of hostility to the Timbers from some of the local clubs, some of it earned.

So, a few naive questions from someone south of the Columbia.

1) From our point of view, it appears that WYSA is far more effective (assuming this as the goal) at concentrating the top talent in a smaller number of top-level clubs. RCL membership is reportedly exclusive--there are 18 clubs around the state involved--and my understanding it would be very hard for a startup club to get in. Does having most the top talent going to one of about 4-5 clubs (PacNW, WPFC, Crossfire, SU, perhaps Eastside) help or hurt things?

2) How are each of the clubs' relationships with the Sounders? (I'll leave out the Reign for now, given it's apparent financial issues). Are they all supportive of the MLS teams' mission? Do they view losing players going to the Sounders as a badge of honor, or as pillage? Are there any issues with youth club Euro-snobbery and generic anti-MLS attitudes, of Nike-sponsored clubs being hostile to anything Adidas related (including MLS)?

3) How fierce is inter-club competition for players? On what basis do clubs compete with each other?

A few things particular to down here:

1) OYSA really has no equivalent to RCL. It has several different divisions of competition ("Premier", "Division 1", "Division 2"), corresonding roughly to State Cup, Presidents Cup, and rec-level teams, but any club or team that wants to register for OYSA premier can. Across the age groups there are many clubs represented, and the "too many clubs in Portland" mantra is heard a lot. New clubs seem to form regularly, and clubs folding also isn't that infrequent.

2) There are a handful of clubs and coaches that rather intensely dislike the Timbers, and actively discourage players from moving to the Timbers Academy. There is a thing called the Timbers Alliance, which includes three metro-area clubs (the three with Timbers or Thorns in the name) and many more located outside the Portland area (including two in Idaho), and the clubs that AREN'T in the alliance routinely accuse the Timbers of favortism in various aspects. (The Alliance AFAIK is open to any club that wishes to join--nobody is being refused--but what the benefits the various parties gain from it is unclear).

3) The Timbers/Peregrine Sports (the holding company that owns the Timbers and Thorns) is contracted by OYSA to administer its leagues and tournaments, including the Presidents Cup and State Cup. It is routinely alleged that the Timbers excessively profit from this arrangement (that league and tournament fees charged to clubs are excessive--clubs are required to provide fields for home games, so the fees do NOT cover field rental--and that youth soccer has become a profit center for Peregrine). Who runs WYSA leagues and cups, how much are clubs/teams charged, and who arranges and pays for fields?

4) Given that Beaverton, OR is the home of Nike corporate headquarters, and Adidas has its US headquarters here (in Portland) as well--it feels like the shoe company rivalries are stronger here, especially from some of the Nike sponsored clubs. Most people don't care about this, but I'm occasionally surprised by the number of club officials and coaches that do.

5) Socio-economics seem to play a factor. There are a few suburban clubs that seem to resent having to travel around the state for games (participation in OYSA Premier generally requires travelling to places like Medford or Bend for league games, both of which often involve an overnight stay), and have from time to time tried to "secede" from OYSA and form their own leagues that only play each other. (Some folks at these clubs also seem to prefer not to play the local Hispanic teams either). It was during one such secession, when OYSA was nearly insolvent, that Peregrine bailed them out, at the cost of the contract discussed in #3 that is the subject of so much scorn.

6) Speaking of Hispanic teams--how many of those exist in Washington (both in the Seattle area and elsewhere), and how are they integrated into WYSA, RCL, and Sounders recruitment? One thing the Timbers do well is reach into the local Latino community to find players, including players who don't play in (and can't afford) club teams. And this too seems to be a source of resentment among some of the suburban clubs--the Timbers tend to prefer highly technical players over big athletic kids for Academy selection (the roster of TA teams does skew Latino), and some of the parents (and coaches) of the latter levy accusations of nepotism and corruption about why their kid was passed over, when their team just beat the team that had a bunch of kids promoted.

7) That said, there are reasons the Timbers aren't blameless. For a while, many Academy coaches offered private training on the side--and while there's no evidence that this had an impact, this does present a MAJOR conflict of interest. (I think the Timbers may now have banned their staff coaches from doing this--the main culprit left the Timbers a while back rather than give up his training business). And then there's the Ben Billups affair--originally the Timbers weren't planning on having a U13 team, but added one at the last minute (this was last year, so the 05s) when a local advertising tycoon agreed to fund it--but he got to select one of the coaches (a club coach his son played with), and his son is on the team. (This year, the son is a part-time player who seldom plays; but probably would not be have been selected at all otherwise). The 06 Academy team doesn't seem to have any of these issues, and appears to be one of the top 06 teams in the country, but the 05 Academy squad appears to be not much better than some of the local club teams.

8) And given that--the fact that Timbers Academy prefers to play in the Washington DA at U13 and U14, rather than the Oregon DA, annoys some of us down here. Some view it as disrespect, some view it as hiding from getting embarrassed by what the Timbers probably view as feeder clubs, especially at the 05 level (Westside and OPFC's 05 teams probably could beat the 05 Timbers Academy on a good day). Any parents/coaches on Crossfire Premier's 05 team (who reportedly were nearly beaten by Westside at the Soccer del Sol tournament in Phoenix last month, before salvaging a draw on a stoppage-time PK) wish to comment?

Thoughts?

[Unregistered]

4) Given that Beaverton, OR is the home of Nike corporate headquarters, and Adidas has its US headquarters here (in Portland) as well--it feels like the shoe company rivalries are stronger here, especially from some of the Nike sponsored clubs. Most people don't care about this, but I'm occasionally surprised by the number of club officials and coaches that do.

5) Socio-economics seem to play a factor. There are a few suburban clubs that seem to resent having to travel around the state for games (participation in OYSA Premier generally requires travelling to places like Medford or Bend for league games, both of which often involve an overnight stay), and have from time to time tried to "secede" from OYSA and form their own leagues that only play each other. (Some folks at these clubs also seem to prefer not to play the local Hispanic teams either). It was during one such secession, when OYSA was nearly insolvent, that Peregrine bailed them out, at the cost of the contract discussed in #3 that is the subject of so much scorn.

6) One thing the Timbers do well is reach into the local Latino community to find players, including players who don't play in (and can't afford) club teams. And this too seems to be a source of resentment among some of the suburban clubs--the Timbers tend to prefer highly technical players over big athletic kids for Academy selection (the roster of TA teams does skew Latino), and some of the parents (and coaches) of the latter levy accusations of nepotism and corruption about why their kid was passed over, when their team just beat the team that had a bunch of kids promoted.

4-6 are generally b.s.

4. Nike clubs -as they are sometimes referred to - is just a proxy for clubs that don't kiss the Peregrine ring. It less to do with being Nike clubs than it has to do with not being alliance clubs.

5. Completely wrong. Bend tends to have reasonably affluent families. Moaning about travel time isn't the same thing as moaning about playing poor people. Occasionally you also hear complaints that Bend gets put in premier division too often, as well, because their club tends to push it; nothing to do with socio-economic issues.

6. Again completely wrong - zero resentment for Timbers reaching out to the latino community. Wish they did more of it. The alliance/oysa thing and how it impacts the academy is a much bigger deal and a source of tension.

On another level, f_u_c_k off in making generalities about clubs and communities views of race and socio-economics - you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

[Unregistered]

4-6 are generally b.s.

4. Nike clubs -as they are sometimes referred to - is just a proxy for clubs that don't kiss the Peregrine ring. It less to do with being Nike clubs than it has to do with not being alliance clubs.

5. Completely wrong. Bend tends to have reasonably affluent families. Moaning about travel time isn't the same thing as moaning about playing poor people. Occasionally you also hear complaints that Bend gets put in premier division too often, as well, because their club tends to push it; nothing to do with socio-economic issues.

6. Again completely wrong - zero resentment for Timbers reaching out to the latino community. Wish they did more of it. The alliance/oysa thing and how it impacts the academy is a much bigger deal and a source of tension.

On another level, f_u_c_k off in making generalities about clubs and communities views of race and socio-economics - you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

4. Referring to the "Peregrine ring" does prove some of the point of the original post: many Oregon soccer people don't like the Timbers, though not necessarily without good reason.

5. The two issues (travel and socio-economics) are separate, but the culprits tend to be the same groups (I won't say "clubs"). Obviously, Bend Timbers are going to have to travel wherever they go, as they're kind of on an island in central Oregon; but more than a few local clubs seem to take the view that the cost of living in a smaller metro like Bend or Medford ought to be entirely borne by the residents there--let them come to Portland if they want a quality opponent; Portland-area teams should never have to drive over the mountain or down the valley for a league game.

6. I'm glad to hear that you personally aren't among the racist crowd. However, don't pretend that it doesn't exist. (It seems to be a bigger problem on the girls' side than on the boys; some of the girls threads in the Oregon forum are chock full of snooty references to poor communities, both white and Latino). And I've heard allegations of racial prejudice directed at coaches, from all directions. ("He prefers Latinos! He doesn't like Asian kids! Their whole team is white, what's up with that?"). Most of these don't withstand scrutiny, but the fact that some things are being uttered is an issue--though in many cases, it may be parents trying to excuse why THEIR kid got benched, and assuming that it was bias or prejudice rather than the possibility their kid is not as good as they think.

Anyone from Seattle area wish to comment? There's a reason this was posted in the Washington forum; the above complaints have been recycled in the Oregon forums a zillion times over.

[Unregistered]

Sounders

You are WAY over-thinking this. The Sounders Academy looks very successful for one reason: scouting. At any given time at least a quarter of the starters at a given age are from out of state. They scout all the big tournaments and in particular search out kids in areas without academies like Hawaii and Nevada. With no fees, a homestay program and the possibility of a professional contract at the end they can get nearly whoever they want to move to Seattle. Every kid in that program knows that while they are in their hotel rooms doing homework between games at showcases, the coaches are out at the field looking at kids from other teams to replace them.

[Unregistered]

You are WAY over-thinking this. The Sounders Academy looks very successful for one reason: scouting. At any given time at least a quarter of the starters at a given age are from out of state. They scout all the big tournaments and in particular search out kids in areas without academies like Hawaii and Nevada. With no fees, a homestay program and the possibility of a professional contract at the end they can get nearly whoever they want to move to Seattle. Every kid in that program knows that while they are in their hotel rooms doing homework between games at showcases, the coaches are out at the field looking at kids from other teams to replace them.

Which brings me to Item #9.

By the time you get to the U19 team or so, most of the kids at Timbers Academy are likewise from out-of-state. There's a large contingent from a youth academy in South Korea; generally a bunch from Florida, etc. So far, none of those have made the first team (the two Academy players most recently promoted are locals), and many of these are from outside the Timbers exclusive territory (no homegrown rights), but as the teams get older, the number of local kids on them shrinks.

Of course, this is often how professional academies abroad work--many of them are international in scope. Only about half the kids in La Masia are Barcelona locals; and many prospects come from abroad. Outside the world of MLS, though, there aren't any "homegrowns" or drafts or any things like that.

[Unregistered]

a mixed bag

As others have said, Sounders Academy recruits heavily from outside the area. My son plays there and he is one of the few locals left...There seems to be a good relationship between local clubs and Sounders, because it provides a pathway for the boys, but there's also awareness that some boys' may see stunted development due to lack of playing time. Seattle United and I think PACNW have arrangements with Sounders to have players go back and play part time with their first clubs, though Sounders can call them back when they need them for the roster. Sounders is also a very well run organization. The boys know how much money is being invested in each of them, and they are expected to behave professionally from a young age.

[Unregistered]

Sounders academy is ****e . The big clubs around here are only interested in who can pay . I would not look at this state enviously as the system sucks !! Not unless of course daddy has a boat load of money or a few connections . To honestly think that this state does a good job at being inclusive is an utter joke . There is no elite clubs here but there is a **** ton of elitism .

[Unregistered]

Sounders academy is ****e . The big clubs around here are only interested in who can pay . I would not look at this state enviously as the system sucks !! Not unless of course daddy has a boat load of money or a few connections . To honestly think that this state does a good job at being inclusive is an utter joke . There is no elite clubs here but there is a **** ton of elitism .

Not sure I fully understand your comment, but kids who play for Sounders Academy pay nothing. To play for most youth clubs costs too much and soccer is filled with elitism, but Sounders is out scouting players everywhere and bringing in kids from less elite backgrounds and more talent, which is why local Seattle kids get weeded out over time and it ends up being mostly homestay players. Sounders is honestly trying to lock in talent who find a second team contract more appealing than playing in college...Also, Handwalla who plays for Sounders first team, is an immigrant refugee kid who came up through Seattle United scholarship and then SOunders Academy, UW and then to the first team. No money, no connections. As Sounders continues to dig for talent that has fewer options than the wealthy kids, we may see more of this. In South Seattle alone there are dozens of immigrant kids who play soccer with passion and creativity but parents don't have money for club.

[Unregistered]

Curious about the relationship between Sounders and Crossfire - how does that work?

[Unregistered]

Not sure I fully understand your comment, but kids who play for Sounders Academy pay nothing. To play for most youth clubs costs too much and soccer is filled with elitism, but Sounders is out scouting players everywhere and bringing in kids from less elite backgrounds and more talent, which is why local Seattle kids get weeded out over time and it ends up being mostly homestay players. Sounders is honestly trying to lock in talent who find a second team contract more appealing than playing in college...Also, Handwalla who plays for Sounders first team, is an immigrant refugee kid who came up through Seattle United scholarship and then SOunders Academy, UW and then to the first team. No money, no connections. As Sounders continues to dig for talent that has fewer options than the wealthy kids, we may see more of this. In South Seattle alone there are dozens of immigrant kids who play soccer with passion and creativity but parents don't have money for club.

Jordan Morris daddy is the chief surgeon for the sounders .....

[Unregistered]

sounders relationship to local clubs

Is that to imply that he isn't a strong player? Does this also influence him being called up to the national team?

[Unregistered]

Curious about the relationship between Sounders and Crossfire - how does that work?

They do not work together on anything. I'm guessing it's a contentious relationship, more on the Crossfire side as the Sounders have taken some of their better players.

[Unregistered]

Is that to imply that he isn't a strong player? Does this also influence him being called up to the national team?

Let’s put it this way , he didn’t get there by talent as he is a very average player . Maybe he’s ok for the sounders and a very poor national team that came 4th in a two horse race in the World Cup quialifiers . But anyone with even half an eye for a player would not point him out .

[Unregistered]

Let’s put it this way , he didn’t get there by talent as he is a very average player . Maybe he’s ok for the sounders and a very poor national team that came 4th in a two horse race in the World Cup quialifiers . But anyone with even half an eye for a player would not point him out .

Assuming we are talking about JoMo here.

Even if he is an "average" player by MLS standards (he's looked good so far this season), and not quite of international caliber--I'm fairly certain that the Sounders consider him to be a success. Most kids that go through an MLS academy will never see a first team contract, let alone a national team callup.

No need to dog Morris.

[Unregistered]

No talent? Pretty sure he did quite well at Stanford while he was there and even won a national title. He may not be the best player USA has but he's no chump. The kid works his ass off and actually should be admired by kids playing youth soccer that his diabetes hasnt held him back. Pretty sure every coach would love to have a whole team with his work rate in a game. Sounds like someone is jealous that he comes from money.