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    Players who have been missed

    I have in the past mentioned players who had been initially missed by ODP such as Claudio Reyna, Brandon Manzorelli (Villareal) Gabriel Ferrari (Sampdoria). Although not related to ODP, I came across a few more players of interest and thought it might be worth starting a new thread in case any kids out there need some motivation to keep on trying. I'll repeat the information on the above a little later, but for now here's some interesting info from another forum supplied by a good source, the Chicago Socker's dad:

    Benny Feilhaber currently appears to be the best player born in Southern California in the late 1980s, and nobody found him (FSM: Benny is on the US MNT, plays for Hamburg SV in the German Bundesliga, was a walk-on at UCLA).

    Andy Johnson (Everton) was cut by a 3rd division youth team when he was 15, and now he's one of the top strikers in England. Roy Keane (Manchester United) was cut by his youth team at age 15. Kaka (AC Milan) wasn't offered a professional contract until he was 18, two years after he was eligible to be signed.
    Paul Scholes (Manchester United) and Steven Gerrard were also mentioned as potentially being overlooked.

    From an article on the Manchester United Youth Academy in the Daily Telegraph:

    Les Kershaw (ManU Academy director) worked with them (Beckham, Giggs, Butt, Scholes and the Nevilles) and is passionate about giving tyros time to blossom. "How many clubs would have taken Scholesy on at 16?" mused Kershaw.........

    "At 16, we could play Scholesy for only 20 minutes a game. He couldn't run. He was a little one. Had asthma. No strength. No power. No athleticism. No endurance. 'You've got a bleeding dwarf,' I remember somebody said to Brian Kidd [the then youth-team coach]. 'You will eat your words,' said Kiddo. If Scholesy had been at a lesser club, they would have got rid of him and he would probably not be in the game now. We stuck with Scholesy, a wonderful technician. How many caps did he get? Sixty-six?!"
    And

    http://www.football-rumours.com/news29_nov06_19.htm

    .......... he admitted yesterday that he struggled through his schooldays, failing to make it into the England Under 16 team and being rejected for the FA Academy.

    ......Gerrard said: I was lucky because even though I didnt make it to the FA school at Lilleshall, my parents and the coaches at Liverpool kept complete faith with me until I developed more physically.

    #2
    That was me.
    Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

    Comment


      #3
      also missed ...

      i think you can add Micheal Parkhurst to the list ...

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Players who have been missed

        Originally posted by Anonymous
        I have in the past mentioned players who had been initially missed by ODP such as Claudio Reyna, Brandon Manzorelli (Villareal) Gabriel Ferrari (Sampdoria). Although not related to ODP, I came across a few more players of interest and thought it might be worth starting a new thread in case any kids out there need some motivation to keep on trying. I'll repeat the information on the above a little later, but for now here's some interesting info from another forum supplied by a good source, the Chicago Socker's dad:

        Benny Feilhaber currently appears to be the best player born in Southern California in the late 1980s, and nobody found him (FSM: Benny is on the US MNT, plays for Hamburg SV in the German Bundesliga, was a walk-on at UCLA).

        Andy Johnson (Everton) was cut by a 3rd division youth team when he was 15, and now he's one of the top strikers in England. Roy Keane (Manchester United) was cut by his youth team at age 15. Kaka (AC Milan) wasn't offered a professional contract until he was 18, two years after he was eligible to be signed.
        Paul Scholes (Manchester United) and Steven Gerrard were also mentioned as potentially being overlooked.

        From an article on the Manchester United Youth Academy in the Daily Telegraph:

        [quote:3scs5lnq]Les Kershaw (ManU Academy director) worked with them (Beckham, Giggs, Butt, Scholes and the Nevilles) and is passionate about giving tyros time to blossom. "How many clubs would have taken Scholesy on at 16?" mused Kershaw.........

        "At 16, we could play Scholesy for only 20 minutes a game. He couldn't run. He was a little one. Had asthma. No strength. No power. No athleticism. No endurance. 'You've got a bleeding dwarf,' I remember somebody said to Brian Kidd [the then youth-team coach]. 'You will eat your words,' said Kiddo. If Scholesy had been at a lesser club, they would have got rid of him and he would probably not be in the game now. We stuck with Scholesy, a wonderful technician. How many caps did he get? Sixty-six?!"
        And

        http://www.football-rumours.com/news29_nov06_19.htm

        .......... he admitted yesterday that he struggled through his schooldays, failing to make it into the England Under 16 team and being rejected for the FA Academy.

        ......Gerrard said: I was lucky because even though I didnt make it to the FA school at Lilleshall, my parents and the coaches at Liverpool kept complete faith with me until I developed more physically.
        [/quote:3scs5lnq]

        More evidence that patience is advisable when applying labels to players too early. The idea that a player has peaked at age 13 is ludicrous. They have only just begun to grasp the tactical complexities of the game. It makes you wonder how many players have been overlooked in Mass. due to our propensity to give up on players after 14 games and 28 practices.

        Comment


          #5
          A couple of issues with this thread. First, the players listed were not missed. They may have had a more unorthodox path to stardum but ultimately all of these players were found and they have accordingly succeeded. The players who were truly "missed" are now working at a Steel factory in Manchester selling cars in Hamburg or maybe stealing them in Rio. Second, the idea of a professional quality player being entirely overlooked in this country, nevermind a potential star being by-passed and spending a career on a MAPLE and HS bench is pretty unlikely. I guess the possibility exists for a player at the base of the pyramid in the very early ages to become frustrated leave the sport and miss out on the opporrtunity to develop into much more - but in this case that isn't really what is being talked about. Yes, deserving players at the periphery of each upward step on the pyramid do get passed over and more importantly our ID system may place a value on a certain type of play and player that has led to inferior national teams. I just don't think that providing some of these examples, beyond the obvious Horatio Alger type of rags to riches scenerio, has much value.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Players who have been missed

            Originally posted by Cujo
            The idea that a player has peaked at age 13 is ludicrous.
            Lot of things factoring into this. Have seen many who 'just decided' not to go to the next level.

            Brings up an interesting question:

            If your son/daughter is in a strong club but the specific team is 'weak', do you move to a better team and possible a degredation in coaching/training or stick it out?

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Players who have been missed

              Originally posted by Anonymous
              Originally posted by Cujo
              The idea that a player has peaked at age 13 is ludicrous.
              Lot of things factoring into this. Have seen many who 'just decided' not to go to the next level.

              Brings up an interesting question:

              If your son/daughter is in a strong club but the specific team is 'weak', do you move to a better team and possible a degredation in coaching/training or stick it out?
              Lots of things happen to the late bloomer. Some shift to lacrosse and softball where the youth organizations are far more patient (they have to be as they are still growing the sport). Some stick it out and thrive as they find the right mix of competition, coaching, and encouragement. Some give up sports altogether. I had a goal keeper who was pegged as being a MAPLE-D goalie who didn't blossom until U16 and got recruited midseason by a D1 club. I let her go as I thought it was in her best interest despite my annoyance about midseason recruiting. She was not necessarily getting into a better training situation. She already had a personal goalkeeping coach and the club I was working with had four licensed coaches on the field at any given time for 20 to 25 players and she shifted into an environment with one alpha male coach. I think there are many permutations of what happens to these players. There are a lot of early bloomers who tail off as well as their peers go through the throes of adolesence.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: also missed ...

                Originally posted by MapleGuest
                i think you can add Micheal Parkhurst to the list ...
                Maybe Clint Dempsey too.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: also missed ...

                  Originally posted by Anonymous
                  Originally posted by MapleGuest
                  i think you can add Micheal Parkhurst to the list ...
                  Maybe Clint Dempsey too.
                  Joe Max Moore.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ontheframe
                    A couple of issues with this thread. First, the players listed were not missed. They may have had a more unorthodox path to stardum but ultimately all of these players were found and they have accordingly succeeded. The players who were truly "missed" are now working at a Steel factory in Manchester selling cars in Hamburg or maybe stealing them in Rio. Second, the idea of a professional quality player being entirely overlooked in this country, nevermind a potential star being by-passed and spending a career on a MAPLE and HS bench is pretty unlikely. I guess the possibility exists for a player at the base of the pyramid in the very early ages to become frustrated leave the sport and miss out on the opporrtunity to develop into much more - but in this case that isn't really what is being talked about. Yes, deserving players at the periphery of each upward step on the pyramid do get passed over and more importantly our ID system may place a value on a certain type of play and player that has led to inferior national teams. I just don't think that providing some of these examples, beyond the obvious Horatio Alger type of rags to riches scenerio, has much value.
                    Legitimate points, but I think there are definitely several points in time when kids drop out for one reason or another, the first seems around the age of 13. The Chicago Socker's dad consistently makes the point from his own observations that this is when you will see on boys youth teams men playing with boys or in other words, those boys who have entered puberty early playing against those who have not. If our youth system is based on selecting players who can win NOW, one can see how and why kids might get discouraged and be missed. Most of these players seem to be "late bloomers". In the case of Gerrard and Scholes they were in academies that had at least a longer term vested interest in their players.

                    BTW here's the link to the old Touchline with info on Ferrari, Reyna, and Joe Max:

                    http://board2.maplesoccer.com/viewtopic ... el+ferrari
                    Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I was going to look for the info on Brandon Manzonelli, the 17 year old that ended up at VillaReal, but it meant sorting through 68 pages of Mr. Stat's blog which is too much work even for me. So I went to Brandon's forum to see what I could put together and found some newly posted material that should definitely be of interest. Two of the things Brandon had going against him was that he was small and born in December.

                      First item is an article about Brandon posted last week in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports ... enDocument

                      While Manzonelli's desire, skill and quickness have never been questioned, his soccer style has not always gone over well with St. Louis coaches.

                      "I like Brandon. I wish more players had his passion for the game,'' said Tommy Howe, one of his coaches in the Scott Gallagher club system. "He has incredible potential, but he just wouldn't listen. He was more interested in showing off his moves than in playing the game the way we wanted him to play.''
                      Posters to the forum asked Brandon questions as a result of this article. Here are some followed by his response.

                      Originally posted by Poster #1
                      Brandon, as you can read, there is much being written about your days with Scott Gallagher. Could you fill us in on your thoughts of the club? Tom Howe's training?
                      Originally posted by Brandon
                      I may be tough mentally, but I am not that tough. I have actually given this much thought and I don't think I am going to play the same game as T. Howe. I am better than that!

                      Gallagher is a wonderful club with a lot of great people including Kevin, Kip, Kemp etc. They are like a huge soccer family and have always treated me well.

                      T. Howe's training is good. And like the famous words of Forest Gump "That's all I have to say about that"
                      Originally posted by Poster #2
                      Regarding the article, the question has come up on another forum.

                      Did the SG style of play stiffle your creativity?
                      Did you lose playing time, when you did things your way?
                      What would be your recommendation for an 11 or 12 year old Manzo?
                      Originally posted by Brandon
                      I am just going to answer the question and not stray even though I would like to

                      1. Yes

                      2. Yes

                      3. Keep doing your thing!!
                      Originally posted by Poster #3
                      I would be interested to know to what extent you participated in the ODP program.

                      By the way, my U14 was at a camp with Valencia CF last week. Good fun, they play his kind of soccer -- emphasis on technique, not rushing the speed of play the way that so many U.S. coaches do. In fact, whereas ODP coaches told him to move the ball more quickly, the Valencia staff encouraged him to hold the ball longer, and wait for his teammates' runs.
                      Originally posted by Brandon
                      I participated in ODP one year but never went back.

                      They wouldn't let me play in the important games because the coach said I was too small and he didn't want me to get hurt. That was about 2 months before I started on the LHS varsity team. I guess Walters (Brandon's HS coach who played professionally) didn't think I was too small. This just shows you that coaches all have different opinions.
                      Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The problem with youth teams is that birth date makes a huge difference. If one looks at the birth dates of the MAPLE D1/D2 teams and the top town teams, in the U13/U14 ages, one will see that almost every player is born in the 6 months starting with August. There are very few younger players.

                        On the boys' side this is especially critical through U16.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by ontheframe
                          A couple of issues with this thread. First, the players listed were not missed. They may have had a more unorthodox path to stardum but ultimately all of these players were found and they have accordingly succeeded. The players who were truly "missed" are now working at a Steel factory in Manchester selling cars in Hamburg or maybe stealing them in Rio. Second, the idea of a professional quality player being entirely overlooked in this country, nevermind a potential star being by-passed and spending a career on a MAPLE and HS bench is pretty unlikely. I guess the possibility exists for a player at the base of the pyramid in the very early ages to become frustrated leave the sport and miss out on the opporrtunity to develop into much more - but in this case that isn't really what is being talked about. Yes, deserving players at the periphery of each upward step on the pyramid do get passed over and more importantly our ID system may place a value on a certain type of play and player that has led to inferior national teams. I just don't think that providing some of these examples, beyond the obvious Horatio Alger type of rags to riches scenerio, has much value.
                          I think the identification process for any sport is hit or miss. Scouts gravitate to areas where they can get maximum views with minimum effort. If you have a 95MPH fast ball and are from So Cal you have a better shot than someone from Presque Isle Maine. To me this is not so much the issue. The issue is how many players are driven from the sport prematurely due to our propensity to stress winning too early and to use terms like "finished player" when referring to 12 year olds. Those are two very different issues and situations.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            MASC writes:

                            The problem with youth teams is that birth date makes a huge difference. On the boys' side this is especially critical through U16.
                            The girls mature earlier - the boys later. So it is with the boys that puberty has a huge effect. But in the end size does matter in girl's soccer. I know the FSM and others are going to "kill me" on this one, but in the majority of the cases (everyone can quote a smaller player or two) size does matter in girl's soccer much more than it does in boy's. So it is really two different critieria in identifying the boys and the girls. That just adds to the confusion in these types of discussions.

                            All generalities are false.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by JustForFun
                              MASC writes:

                              The problem with youth teams is that birth date makes a huge difference. On the boys' side this is especially critical through U16.
                              The girls mature earlier - the boys later. So it is with the boys that puberty has a huge effect. But in the end size does matter in girl's soccer. I know the FSM and others are going to "kill me" on this one, but in the majority of the cases (everyone can quote a smaller player or two) size does matter in girl's soccer much more than it does in boy's. So it is really two different critieria in identifying the boys and the girls. That just adds to the confusion in these types of discussions.

                              All generalities are false.
                              No, I won't kill you, because you are correct, but I think it is important to understand why it is more important. One reason is because the technical ability of most girls/women is lower than boys/men at the highest levels of the game and as a result the sophistication of the tactical part of the women's game is also lower (or so says Anson Dorrance anyway), so the physical element takes on more importance (not that it isn't very important in the male game). Things are changing on the girls side, however, but I don't expect to see much change on the size issue for the women's game because of the popularity of girls soccer in the US. It's interesting to note the currently the smallest player on the US Women's team happens to be the oldest - Kristine Lilly

                              A while ago I looked at the birth dates by months of male and female national teams and found it interesting that the anomaly toward early birth months on the male side doesn't really exist on the women's side. I'm guessing that is because girls reach physical maturity about 2 years earlier on average than do boys.

                              BTW did anyone catch the U20 World Cup finals yesterday? It was a great example of the difference between the styles of a northern European team and a South American team. Argentina won 2-1 against the Czech Republic. I think you could describe the Czech as big and efficient and the Argentines as small (very small, in some cases), quick and skillful. I thought by the physical battering the Argentines were taking in the first half that they would surely lose in the end, but they actually seem to gain momentum in the second half. Most notable was their ability to maintain possession even in 50/50 situations against bigger opponents. They must be taught how to to effectively use their limited size. That wouldn't be a bad thing to teach both boys and girls in the US. :)
                              Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

                              Comment

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