Eastside now the Thorns?

[Unregistered]

As a final note--neither Eastside nor WashT are known for overpaid directors; if anything it's the clubs that pay their staff too much that don't have the financial ability to invest in fields.

Not quite accurate - pcu pays more for leadership than anyone and has done quite in developing fields.

[Unregistered]

Timbers unloaded thorns on Westside and only will use eastside to rent space.

Eastside will do a good job.

[Unregistered]

Westside has only taken over some of the back end admin process.

The Portland Timbers/Thorns still run and heavily invest in the GDA This is why there is such a price discrepancy between the GDA and ECNL.

Basically the Portland Timbers/Thorns really DO care about our community, their actions by fully funding a boy's DA and heavily subsiding a GDA show it. Thank you Portland Timbers because they don't have to give to either.

When I look at some clubs around the area and see these six figure DOC salaries, high cost travel programs I wonder, what are they reinvesting into the communities as non profits. Most don't even have recreational programs anymore. No wonder why youth participation is down.

The Timbers are REQUIRED to fund their boys DA program. They are only involved with the GDA because they have to. The Timbers know as well as everyone else that women’s professional soccer will fail soon so they have no real commitment to girls soccer or GDA and were shopping their program around this year. West side and Eastside were not first picks.

The Timbers siphon money out of youth soccer through their strangle hold on OYSA via an illegal and private contract and RTC/ODP which is a thinly veiled money grab. They are not giving back. They are a vehicle for unethical coaches to make a living in Oregon.

[Unregistered]

The Timbers are REQUIRED to fund their boys DA program. They are only involved with the GDA because they have to.

Except they don't have to. Lie. NWSL does not require GDA participation, let alone funding of GDA teams. Thorns are operating TWO GDA academies, one here and one in NorCal.

The Timbers know as well as everyone else that women’s professional soccer will fail soon so they have no real commitment to girls soccer or GDA and were shopping their program around this year. West side and Eastside were not first picks.

Doesn't appear to be failing. It isn't as lucrative as MLS (let alone first-division men's soccer elsewhere), but NWSL averages about 6k fans per game (Portland is 3x that), which is about the same as England's third division. You don't think League One is about to fail, do you?

The Timbers siphon money out of youth soccer through their strangle hold on OYSA via an illegal and private contract and RTC/ODP which is a thinly veiled money grab. They are not giving back. They are a vehicle for unethical coaches to make a living in Oregon.

Yeah, yeah, save it for the judge. Except if this laughable conspiracy of yours were actually taken before a judge, it would be laughed out of court. If OYSA wants to sue to get out of the deal, alleging that their predecessors weren't negotiating at arms length, that's their prerogative, but you're not OYSA.

The worst of the unethical coaches in Oregon aren't working for the Timbers or at the alliance clubs. They're the ones affiliating with personal training outfits, or trafficking on the good names of foreign pro clubs, or involving themselves with exclusive travel leagues trying to corner the market on college recruiters. In short--the folks doing their best to focus on the rich suburban marks. You can always tell the real crooks; they're the ones who keep telling everyone how honest they are.

[Unregistered]

Looks like we have the Timbers patrolling TS today as usual!

You are spinning.

The only reason the Timbers are finding GDA (less this year and more then they wanted to) is to try and pour players out of ECNL. That’s it.

Wishful thinking for NWSL. 6k seats and almost no TV ratings isn’t paying the bills even if women play for peanuts.

OYSA is run by spineless schmucks. They know the contract is not legal. It violates their own bylaws! They lack the will to fight the Timbers because they are all afraid of the reprocussions from the Timbers who have proven to be spiteful.

[Unregistered]

ta

Looks like we have the Timbers patrolling TS today as usual!

You are spinning.

The only reason the Timbers are finding GDA (less this year and more then they wanted to) is to try and pour players out of ECNL. That’s it.

As usual, you make little sense.

If the Timbers weren't interested in running a girls academy--why would they care about ECNL or want to harm it? They could just do like the colleges do and recruit players coming out of the existing youth clubs, or out of college (if you're a girl with good grades, there's little sense in going straight to the pros and losing your eligibility).

Even if you believe in the sillier conspiracy theories concerning US Soccer (they merely wanted control rather than having concrete objections to the ENCL program or simply desiring an alternative)

Obviously, the quality of players coming out of the existing club arrangements weren't good enough.

Wishful thinking for NWSL. 6k seats and almost no TV ratings isn’t paying the bills even if women play for peanuts.

Obviously you know little about the economics of minor-league sports. A small-time pro league can indeed survive on 6000 fans per game. There are many, many examples.

OYSA is run by spineless schmucks. They know the contract is not legal. It violates their own bylaws! They lack the will to fight the Timbers because they are all afraid of the reprocussions from the Timbers who have proven to be spiteful.

Which bylaw is that?

I find amazing how the Timbers are simultaneously all-powerful and incompetent in these sorts of rants.

[Unregistered]

As usual, you make little sense.

If the Timbers weren't interested in running a girls academy--why would they care about ECNL or want to harm it? They could just do like the colleges do and recruit players coming out of the existing youth clubs, or out of college (if you're a girl with good grades, there's little sense in going straight to the pros and losing your eligibility).

Even if you believe in the sillier conspiracy theories concerning US Soccer (they merely wanted control rather than having concrete objections to the ENCL program or simply desiring an alternative)

Obviously, the quality of players coming out of the existing club arrangements weren't good enough.



Obviously you know little about the economics of minor-league sports. A small-time pro league can indeed survive on 6000 fans per game. There are many, many examples.



Which bylaw is that?

I find amazing how the Timbers are simultaneously all-powerful and incompetent in these sorts of rants.

Stop being naive and dishonest.

Why worry about ecnl? Because the Timbers want the players. It’s as simple as that. You gambled on free’ish aoccer last year and pulling back some this year.

It is well documented how US Soccer has firmly gone after ECNL and refused to work with the league. Instead they split the competition and disrupted an effective collegiate process for female players.

The Timbers asserted control over OYSA after OPL refused to continue paying them off ($60k per year in 4 installments) prior to the split that ultimately drew all clubs back to OYSA. It was always about money and control.

Now we are stuck with a secret 10 year contract effectively giving control of OYSA to the Timbers that was signed by the deadbeat Madding without OYSA review and board approval. The contract would not hold up if challenged. The issue is that too many people are afraid to stand up to the Timbers.

The bylaw the contract violates is the conflict of interest where we have the Timbers administering the same league their affiliates play in.

[Unregistered]

Stop being naive and dishonest.

Pots and kettles.

Why worry about ecnl? Because the Timbers want the players. It’s as simple as that. You gambled on free’ish aoccer last year and pulling back some this year.

I've nothing to do with Thorns, so "I" didn't gamble on anything. But you didn't answer the question. If the Thorns have no real interest in youth soccer, why would they bother? A lot of the nonsense spread in this forum is that Thorns don't really want to participate in GDA, and were looking to "dump" it on a local club. But if Thorns didn't want the GDA, they could simply just leave. Unlike MLS, there is no obligation for NWSL teams to operate GDA teams, and some NWSL teams have academies in ECNL.

And as for "wanting" the players, they could simply recruit them when they graduate. There's no transfer market for women.

[quote]
It is well documented how US Soccer has firmly gone after ECNL and refused to work with the league. Instead they split the competition and disrupted an effective collegiate process for female players.
[/quote[

"Disrupted an exploitative monopoly that was attempting to corner the market on college recruiting". And one that was not adequately training players for the national team, focusing instead on grooming benchwarmers for North Carolina.

US Soccer isn't trying to get rid of ECNL. If they wanted to, they would use their rulemaking power as the Federation to shut it down, or at least interfere with its operations. Instead, they simply opened up a competing platform. It's US Club and ECNL who are stamping their feet and insisting that they and only they have the right to operate an elite girls' platform in this country, because they were there first. ECNL should survive fine--and I have no objection to ECNL existing; the two platforms can serve different goals. But the ECNL business model depends on being able to tell parents "you want to be seen? Gotta play for us!", and telling college coaches, "you want top players? Gotta come watch us", and convincing both camps that the other alternatives (GDA, USYS) are all second-rate "rec" leagues.

In other words, ECNL is selling access. Their value proposition is not better coaching; it's on attempting to monopolize the recruiting pipeline. And selling access is only a lucrative market if there's no competition--if access becomes cheap, then the big bucks stop rolling in. And GDA teams are expensive to run, given the full-year schedule and the demanding technical requirements, even if there's no subsidy. Clubs doing ECNL get to keep a lot more of the player dollars.

It's ECNL that views GDA as a mortal threat, not the other way around.

The Timbers asserted control over OYSA after OPL refused to continue paying them off ($60k per year in 4 installments) prior to the split that ultimately drew all clubs back to OYSA. It was always about money and control.

Now we are stuck with a secret 10 year contract effectively giving control of OYSA to the Timbers that was signed by the deadbeat Madding without OYSA review and board approval. The contract would not hold up if challenged. The issue is that too many people are afraid to stand up to the Timbers.

The deal didn't give the Timbers control of OYSA; the OYSA board remains elected by the member clubs as always. The deal was to operate the leagues and cups. It seems the only complaint I hear from you that has any merit is "it costs too much" (compared to what?) or "they're spending our money on Thornz!" (so what?)

What, are the Timbers/Thorns a mafia outfit? Is Diego Chara going to come break some DoC's kneecaps if they complain? "People are afraid"--of what? That they're going to get a road game in Medford during fall league if they cross Peregrine? That they might get stuck in Premier White instead of Premier Green?

The bylaw the contract violates is the conflict of interest where we have the Timbers administering the same league their affiliates play in.

Do you even know what bylaws are? Have you read OYSA's? They are here: http://oysa.bonzidev.com/doclib/OYSA...02_19_2011.pdf.

The bylaws contain nothing about the Timbers at all, nor any rule preventing OYSA from outsourcing some of its functions to an outside organization. They are ambiguous as to the power of the OYSA president to enter into contracts. (Did the OYSA board at the time object to the deal?). You might object to the deal--particularly if you think that Peregrine is not administering the leagues and cups fairly--but whining about what they do with their profits is bush league.

[Unregistered]

Soccer Chat Room Rule #3: nobody will read any post that is over three sentences long.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=Unregistered;2315046]Pots and kettles.



I've nothing to do with Thorns, so "I" didn't gamble on anything. But you didn't answer the question. If the Thorns have no real interest in youth soccer, why would they bother? A lot of the nonsense spread in this forum is that Thorns don't really want to participate in GDA, and were looking to "dump" it on a local club. But if Thorns didn't want the GDA, they could simply just leave. Unlike MLS, there is no obligation for NWSL teams to operate GDA teams, and some NWSL teams have academies in ECNL.

And as for "wanting" the players, they could simply recruit them when they graduate. There's no transfer market for women.

It is well documented how US Soccer has firmly gone after ECNL and refused to work with the league. Instead they split the competition and disrupted an effective collegiate process for female players.
[/quote[

"Disrupted an exploitative monopoly that was attempting to corner the market on college recruiting". And one that was not adequately training players for the national team, focusing instead on grooming benchwarmers for North Carolina.

US Soccer isn't trying to get rid of ECNL. If they wanted to, they would use their rulemaking power as the Federation to shut it down, or at least interfere with its operations. Instead, they simply opened up a competing platform. It's US Club and ECNL who are stamping their feet and insisting that they and only they have the right to operate an elite girls' platform in this country, because they were there first. ECNL should survive fine--and I have no objection to ECNL existing; the two platforms can serve different goals. But the ECNL business model depends on being able to tell parents "you want to be seen? Gotta play for us!", and telling college coaches, "you want top players? Gotta come watch us", and convincing both camps that the other alternatives (GDA, USYS) are all second-rate "rec" leagues.

In other words, ECNL is selling access. Their value proposition is not better coaching; it's on attempting to monopolize the recruiting pipeline. And selling access is only a lucrative market if there's no competition--if access becomes cheap, then the big bucks stop rolling in. And GDA teams are expensive to run, given the full-year schedule and the demanding technical requirements, even if there's no subsidy. Clubs doing ECNL get to keep a lot more of the player dollars.

It's ECNL that views GDA as a mortal threat, not the other way around.



The deal didn't give the Timbers control of OYSA; the OYSA board remains elected by the member clubs as always. The deal was to operate the leagues and cups. It seems the only complaint I hear from you that has any merit is "it costs too much" (compared to what?) or "they're spending our money on Thornz!" (so what?)

What, are the Timbers/Thorns a mafia outfit? Is Diego Chara going to come break some DoC's kneecaps if they complain? "People are afraid"--of what? That they're going to get a road game in Medford during fall league if they cross Peregrine? That they might get stuck in Premier White instead of Premier Green?



Do you even know what bylaws are? Have you read OYSA's? They are here: http://oysa.bonzidev.com/doclib/OYSA...02_19_2011.pdf.

The bylaws contain nothing about the Timbers at all, nor any rule preventing OYSA from outsourcing some of its functions to an outside organization. They are ambiguous as to the power of the OYSA president to enter into contracts. (Did the OYSA board at the time object to the deal?). You might object to the deal--particularly if you think that Peregrine is not administering the leagues and cups fairly--but whining about what they do with their profits is bush league.

A couple of thoughts here (not OP):

GDA v. ECNL. Beyond Oregon particulars, GDA has driven up cost in the entire ecosystem. In some regions of the country you have as many as 4 leagues attempting to cater to elite; because like teams in same area aren't playing each other, have to travel further for more games, driving up cost for everyone and decreasing quality of games on average.To be fair to GDA that didn't start this problem - arguably the creation of Boys DA and US Club (for 2 entirely different reasons) started this process years ago, exacerbated by ECNL, further exacerbated by GDA. GDA isn't the only cause of this problem, but it made a problem worse. Yes some clubs like Crossfire subsidize their GDA, but in then end that is just the other part of their clubs (and to a certain extent teams that travel to their tournament) subsidizing that cost; overall cost in the system goes up when Crossfire travels to norcal repeatedly.

Timbers and OYSA. There are a number of problems with the original contract:
(i) neither board nor member clubs approved or for that matter saw the contract (board members saw it last year when some clubs started throwing a stink),
(ii) Madden was a contractor of Peregrine at the time he negotiated on behalf of OYSA, which is a real or apparent conflicts, and
(iii) there are some at USYSA who have asked whether OYSA can even subcontract ODP, much less leagues and cups.

There is also an issue of moral hazard - Peregrine strong-armed OPL into 60k in licensing. OPL concluded they weren't getting anything for the 60k and opted to discontinue. Peregrine takes deal to OYSA. Is there anything illegal in that? I don't know. But it is a crappy way to deal with local youth organizations and if you support the OYSA/Peregrine contract in a sense you are supporting this conduct.

Then there is the issue of how the contract is administered. Mike Smith and Eric Lysko make decisions that benefit Peregrine from everything OYSA tryout dates, to how they administer ODP (and the non-stop marketing of Peregrine programs). Mike Smith was last I checked Thorns Academy lead, which competes directly with every single HS-aged program in Oregon that wishes to compete at a reasonably high level. They are doing that while they are suppose to be providing services to OYSA, and indirectly its clubs.

This latter part is pretty solvable - put up a wall between those that are supporting competing programs (Timbers/Thorns Academy) and those that are making decisions that affect OYSA clubs.

[Unregistered]

Let's keep this real simple and local.

Timbers & Thorns field US Soccer Development Academy teams. Nearly free for boys and heavily subsidized for Girls. No local club will ever get this opportunity, so they have no competition for 'big' DA players, period. It's their choice, they operate without any parent elect board or local membership. It's simply the only DA available in the market.

How does this impact HS Soccer or the local club? It varies some clubs with high caliber players feed the DA, other don't. Some HS's take a hit with their game changers elevated to the DA. In the end everyone moves forward. Albeit, it's become a very watered down at the HS and Club levels due to the growth and quality of the 'big' DA.

In conclusion the Timbers & Thorns DA are not competing with anyone in Oregon, as no club has the moniker or status as 'Big' DA club.

Peregrine & OYSA:

3rd party contractor agreement. It's a business operational decision.
Just like who they use to clean the OYSA offices.

Keers/Madden/Maderia/Meckel all signed off at different times on this evolving 'contract' Each adding a layer of stench. What's done is done.

OPL had so many issues, that singling out how they dealt with Peregrine is not germane. They screwed up at ever turn & corner, then folded shop.

MS & EL are in a sticky spot as de-facto OYSA admin, now working for Peregrine.
In the end they answer to GW, who calls all the shots in their dual roles as (OYSA & Peregrine) lackeys .

They are simply asked to wear both an OYSA hat and Peregrine hat, they have demonstrated they will serve only one master (GW).

OYSA needs to hire their own leadership that calls the shots for EL & MS sub contracting efforts of OYSA services. Somehow GW has his puppets (MS/EL) dictating OYSA affairs, which is crooked and disgusting. Easy fix, OYSA calls the shots for OYSA activities. Simple enough. Not sure were the chain of command is broke on this front. But, it needs to be fixed. Absolutely.

[Unregistered]

Let's keep this real simple and local.

Timbers & Thorns field US Soccer Development Academy teams. Nearly free for boys and heavily subsidized for Girls. No local club will ever get this opportunity, so they have no competition for 'big' DA players, period. It's their choice, they operate without any parent elect board or local membership. It's simply the only DA available in the market.

How does this impact HS Soccer or the local club? It varies some clubs with high caliber players feed the DA, other don't. Some HS's take a hit with their game changers elevated to the DA. In the end everyone moves forward. Albeit, it's become a very watered down at the HS and Club levels due to the growth and quality of the 'big' DA.

In conclusion the Timbers & Thorns DA are not competing with anyone in Oregon, as no club has the moniker or status as 'Big' DA club.

Peregrine & OYSA:

3rd party contractor agreement. It's a business operational decision.
Just like who they use to clean the OYSA offices.

Keers/Madden/Maderia/Meckel all signed off at different times on this evolving 'contract' Each adding a layer of stench. What's done is done.

OPL had so many issues, that singling out how they dealt with Peregrine is not germane. They screwed up at ever turn & corner, then folded shop.

MS & EL are in a sticky spot as de-facto OYSA admin, now working for Peregrine.
In the end they answer to GW, who calls all the shots in their dual roles as (OYSA & Peregrine) lackeys .

They are simply asked to wear both an OYSA hat and Peregrine hat, they have demonstrated they will serve only one master (GW).

OYSA needs to hire their own leadership that calls the shots for EL & MS sub contracting efforts of OYSA services. Somehow GW has his puppets (MS/EL) dictating OYSA affairs, which is crooked and disgusting. Easy fix, OYSA calls the shots for OYSA activities. Simple enough. Not sure were the chain of command is broke on this front. But, it needs to be fixed. Absolutely.

So much red herring on the DA - 8 clubs have been offered DA in this area at different times and levels - the only reason GDA is even a part of this discussion is that
(i) purported "future" direction of US soccer gets Timbers' apologists eyes swimming, it seems to justify everything Timbers do in their eyes, and
(ii) while Timbers are free to do what they need to do for their programs, they shouldn't be using OYSA for those ends. Pimping GDA in ODP email groups is poor form (and frankly if the program is so badass, unnecessary).

On the contract not sure "what is done is done" but if they can get Mike/Erik out of running OYSA programs (or out of conflicting roles), solves lots of the issues here.

[Unregistered]

Let's keep this real simple and local.

Timbers & Thorns field US Soccer Development Academy teams. Nearly free for boys and heavily subsidized for Girls. No local club will ever get this opportunity, so they have no competition for 'big' DA players, period. It's their choice, they operate without any parent elect board or local membership. It's simply the only DA available in the market.

How does this impact HS Soccer or the local club? It varies some clubs with high caliber players feed the DA, other don't. Some HS's take a hit with their game changers elevated to the DA. In the end everyone moves forward. Albeit, it's become a very watered down at the HS and Club levels due to the growth and quality of the 'big' DA.

In conclusion the Timbers & Thorns DA are not competing with anyone in Oregon, as no club has the moniker or status as 'Big' DA club.

Peregrine & OYSA:

3rd party contractor agreement. It's a business operational decision.
Just like who they use to clean the OYSA offices.

Keers/Madden/Maderia/Meckel all signed off at different times on this evolving 'contract' Each adding a layer of stench. What's done is done.

OPL had so many issues, that singling out how they dealt with Peregrine is not germane. They screwed up at ever turn & corner, then folded shop.

MS & EL are in a sticky spot as de-facto OYSA admin, now working for Peregrine.
In the end they answer to GW, who calls all the shots in their dual roles as (OYSA & Peregrine) lackeys .

They are simply asked to wear both an OYSA hat and Peregrine hat, they have demonstrated they will serve only one master (GW).

OYSA needs to hire their own leadership that calls the shots for EL & MS sub contracting efforts of OYSA services. Somehow GW has his puppets (MS/EL) dictating OYSA affairs, which is crooked and disgusting. Easy fix, OYSA calls the shots for OYSA activities. Simple enough. Not sure were the chain of command is broke on this front. But, it needs to be fixed. Absolutely.

Even simpler: There's a good reason why the Thornz Asylum GDA is the only DA program in the state. It's WORSE than OYSA 2nd division and is a complete scam. It is the lowest level of soccer offered in the state of Oregon and can't even compete for rec players on a consistent basis. Everybody knows this to be true but they still manage to find a few suckers every year that are willing to cough up $15K to play rec-level soccer against clubs that can't even field teams (Burlingame) while preventing their players from participating in any activities outside of the Asylum. As such they only attract the very bottom of the bottom feeders that have no hope of ever getting beyond backup pine rider on their high school's "C" team.

Just the facts.

[Unregistered]

Even simpler: There's a good reason why the Thornz Asylum GDA is the only DA program in the state. It's WORSE than OYSA 2nd division and is a complete scam. It is the lowest level of soccer offered in the state of Oregon and can't even compete for rec players on a consistent basis. Everybody knows this to be true but they still manage to find a few suckers every year that are willing to cough up $15K to play rec-level soccer against clubs that can't even field teams (Burlingame) while preventing their players from participating in any activities outside of the Asylum. As such they only attract the very bottom of the bottom feeders that have no hope of ever getting beyond backup pine rider on their high school's "C" team.

Just the facts.

I'm no fan of the DA and what it has done to youth soccer in this state, but the statement above is just stupid and based on a dumb premise, incorrect facts, and stupid assertions.

[Unregistered]

I'm no fan of the DA and what it has done to youth soccer in this state, but the statement above is just stupid and based on a dumb premise, incorrect facts, and stupid assertions.

All trueb