Why do the Thorns Academy lemmings want the ECNL clubs to fail?

[Unregistered]

Closed leagues mean more money for those running the leagues and clubs, and for US Soccer. US Soccer doesn't want a truly open competition model. If they did, why would they just start a brand new closed league in the GDA? No way the So Cal Blues of the world want to put their teams up against any old hillbilly team from the backwoods that might, once in a blue moon, actually beat them...

FWIW, I think the GDA (and the DA) shouldn't wall themselves off from competing with other teams; one of my complaints about ECNL is that ECNL teams only compete with other ECNL teams. I've no problem with a club or team being High Level Development focused, and training more and playing games less. Which is part of the model of both ECNL and (G)DA.

But utterly refusing to play anyone else is a bad idea. At a minimum, I'd like to see ECNL and (G)DA teams participating in state cup (perhaps with an alternate way of getting in if they don't want to do fall/spring leagues, and given their model I can understand not wanting the game/travel schedule of league play).

[Unregistered]

FWIW, I think the GDA (and the DA) shouldn't wall themselves off from competing with other teams; one of my complaints about ECNL is that ECNL teams only compete with other ECNL teams. I've no problem with a club or team being High Level Development focused, and training more and playing games less. Which is part of the model of both ECNL and (G)DA.

But utterly refusing to play anyone else is a bad idea. At a minimum, I'd like to see ECNL and (G)DA teams participating in state cup (perhaps with an alternate way of getting in if they don't want to do fall/spring leagues, and given their model I can understand not wanting the game/travel schedule of league play).

FCP's ECNL teams played at the Winter Showcase. Although they were all playing up a year or two if you want your DD's team to play them. But playing day in and day out in OYSA would be a waste of time.

[Unregistered]

FWIW, I think the GDA (and the DA) shouldn't wall themselves off from competing with other teams; one of my complaints about ECNL is that ECNL teams only compete with other ECNL teams. I've no problem with a club or team being High Level Development focused, and training more and playing games less. Which is part of the model of both ECNL and (G)DA.

But utterly refusing to play anyone else is a bad idea. At a minimum, I'd like to see ECNL and (G)DA teams participating in state cup (perhaps with an alternate way of getting in if they don't want to do fall/spring leagues, and given their model I can understand not wanting the game/travel schedule of league play).

Most ECNL teams play other non-ECNL teams in non-ECNL competitions. Crossfire Challenge and NWCL are just two examples in this area. The DA, on the other hand, is completely closed. Not only can the teams not participated in non-DA events, but the players can't participate in non-DA events either.

[Unregistered]

FWIW, I think the GDA (and the DA) shouldn't wall themselves off from competing with other teams; one of my complaints about ECNL is that ECNL teams only compete with other ECNL teams. I've no problem with a club or team being High Level Development focused, and training more and playing games less. Which is part of the model of both ECNL and (G)DA.

But utterly refusing to play anyone else is a bad idea. At a minimum, I'd like to see ECNL and (G)DA teams participating in state cup (perhaps with an alternate way of getting in if they don't want to do fall/spring leagues, and given their model I can understand not wanting the game/travel schedule of league play).

They could play in state cup if OYSA wanted them to. OYSA makes the rules as to who qualifies and who doesn't. Evidently, OYSA (or, more likely, the Timbers) doesn't want them in the Oregon State Cup.

[Unregistered]

They could play in state cup if OYSA wanted them to. OYSA makes the rules as to who qualifies and who doesn't. Evidently, OYSA (or, more likely, the Timbers) doesn't want them in the Oregon State Cup.

Trust me. You don't want them in state cup either.

[Unregistered]

Trust me. You don't want them in state cup either.

The only way to make the schedules work (April typically has several ECNL league or Showcase games) would be to let the 2 ECNL teams at each age group advance directly to the semi-finals against the 2 best from the rest of Oregon. Most years you'd end up with an all-ECNL final for the State Cup but is that really so bad? State cup is supposed to be to see who is the best in the entire state, regardless of which league(s) they play in normally.

[Unregistered]

Most ECNL teams play other non-ECNL teams in non-ECNL competitions. Crossfire Challenge and NWCL are just two examples in this area. The DA, on the other hand, is completely closed. Not only can the teams not participated in non-DA events, but the players can't participate in non-DA events either.

Does the DA not allow its team or players to play vs (or guest with) any non-DA teams so their level can't be gauged?

[Unregistered]

Does the DA not allow its team or players to play vs (or guest with) any non-DA teams so their level can't be gauged?

Exactly. If the players can't see what's going on outside the prison walls of the DA then they won't get antsy and start "escaping" for better options like the ECNL.

[Unregistered]

The only way to make the schedules work (April typically has several ECNL league or Showcase games) would be to let the 2 ECNL teams at each age group advance directly to the semi-finals against the 2 best from the rest of Oregon. Most years you'd end up with an all-ECNL final for the State Cup but is that really so bad? State cup is supposed to be to see who is the best in the entire state, regardless of which league(s) they play in normally.

That there is part of the problem--ECNL went and set up many of their league events AT THE SAME TIME as the USYS-sanctioned State Cups. State Cup has been held in April like, forever. I've no problem with having an alternate entry mechanism into State Cup (other than Fall/Spring leagues) for those teams who want a more training-focused model--but ECNL, when it was formed, made the decision to hold their events at the same time as the USYS tourneys. It's not hard to assume that this was done deliberately. So no--ENCL clubs don't (and shouldn't) get a free pass into the semifinals; the State Cup was on the calendar first.

(What I would do is have a qualifying tourney sometime during the spring, for teams not participating in Spring League, and give a few spots in State to teams who do well in this tourney. But most of the slots in State should go to teams who participate in Fall/Spring league. And everyone has to start in pool play and advance on the merits).

That said--if ECNL teams earn their way in and dominate? Awesome. Open competition.

But just because ECNL girls are down at a cattle call in Vegas, showing off for college scouts, at the same time as State Cup doesn't mean they get to cut to the head of the line.

And the same ought to apply to the (G)DA. Obviously, if either ECNL or (G)DA wants to bypass completely the USYS system, they can; but knock off the boasting.

My main objection, again, to ECNL is their attempt to monopolize college recruiting, and to force girls who are interested in being scholarship athletes to play for their clubs in order to have access to coaches. If the GDA ends up doing the same thing, shame on them.

[Unregistered]

That there is part of the problem--ECNL went and set up many of their league events AT THE SAME TIME as the USYS-sanctioned State Cups. State Cup has been held in April like, forever. I've no problem with having an alternate entry mechanism into State Cup (other than Fall/Spring leagues) for those teams who want a more training-focused model--but ECNL, when it was formed, made the decision to hold their events at the same time as the USYS tourneys. It's not hard to assume that this was done deliberately. So no--ENCL clubs don't (and shouldn't) get a free pass into the semifinals; the State Cup was on the calendar first.

(What I would do is have a qualifying tourney sometime during the spring, for teams not participating in Spring League, and give a few spots in State to teams who do well in this tourney. But most of the slots in State should go to teams who participate in Fall/Spring league. And everyone has to start in pool play and advance on the merits).

That said--if ECNL teams earn their way in and dominate? Awesome. Open competition.

But just because ECNL girls are down at a cattle call in Vegas, showing off for college scouts, at the same time as State Cup doesn't mean they get to cut to the head of the line.

And the same ought to apply to the (G)DA. Obviously, if either ECNL or (G)DA wants to bypass completely the USYS system, they can; but knock off the boasting.

My main objection, again, to ECNL is their attempt to monopolize college recruiting, and to force girls who are interested in being scholarship athletes to play for their clubs in order to have access to coaches. If the GDA ends up doing the same thing, shame on them.

Slow down, turbo. Do you realize that Oregon, with our April-May state cup, is the exception? So you're proposing that ECNL should schedule national events to clash with their many ECNL clubs in other states, so they don't conflict with the state cup schedule in Oregon? That's just crazy talk. Look up when Region IV states do their state cups and you'll see. Oregon is either last or next to last on the list.

[Unregistered]

That there is part of the problem--ECNL went and set up many of their league events AT THE SAME TIME as the USYS-sanctioned State Cups. State Cup has been held in April like, forever. I've no problem with having an alternate entry mechanism into State Cup (other than Fall/Spring leagues) for those teams who want a more training-focused model--but ECNL, when it was formed, made the decision to hold their events at the same time as the USYS tourneys. It's not hard to assume that this was done deliberately. So no--ENCL clubs don't (and shouldn't) get a free pass into the semifinals; the State Cup was on the calendar first.

(What I would do is have a qualifying tourney sometime during the spring, for teams not participating in Spring League, and give a few spots in State to teams who do well in this tourney. But most of the slots in State should go to teams who participate in Fall/Spring league. And everyone has to start in pool play and advance on the merits).

That said--if ECNL teams earn their way in and dominate? Awesome. Open competition.

But just because ECNL girls are down at a cattle call in Vegas, showing off for college scouts, at the same time as State Cup doesn't mean they get to cut to the head of the line.

And the same ought to apply to the (G)DA. Obviously, if either ECNL or (G)DA wants to bypass completely the USYS system, they can; but knock off the boasting.

My main objection, again, to ECNL is their attempt to monopolize college recruiting, and to force girls who are interested in being scholarship athletes to play for their clubs in order to have access to coaches. If the GDA ends up doing the same thing, shame on them.

Very few states hold their state cup in April. Oregon and WA are exceptions, not the rule. The ECNL schedule is built to fit around HS soccer. Therefore the league schedule has to run from November to May with playoffs in June. It is the way it is for a reason, and not to conflict with any particular Oregon USYS competition.

[Unregistered]

Slow down, turbo. Do you realize that Oregon, with our April-May state cup, is the exception? So you're proposing that ECNL should schedule national events to clash with their many ECNL clubs in other states, so they don't conflict with the state cup schedule in Oregon? That's just crazy talk. Look up when Region IV states do their state cups and you'll see. Oregon is either last or next to last on the list.

The only states with later state cups are the far north like Wyoming and Montana. Most in Region IV are run in Jan/Feb/Mar

[Unregistered]

It means that the coaches who work at building something can hand off their players to someone who won't bad-mouth and might actually support their efforts.

Say what you want about FC and Crossfire (Oregon), but at this point they have a model to support elite girl players from u11 to u18. Once ECNL came to town, made it very difficult for Westside to hold onto HS-aged players inside their system.

That trend has been pushing itself younger and younger - girls' players have been foregoing alliance clubs altogether in Portland or jumping to FC/Crossfire earlier - look for example at state cup results . . . use to be Westside and Eastside would be very strong in the young girl age groups, that simply didn't happen this year. Thorns Academy gives Westside an "elite" path without leaving their club.

At the end of the day though, you are right, families can always switch clubs. Today FC and Crossfire families have elite options without leaving their club; Thorns might give Westside that too.

We really need to get away from this club centric mentality for developing our elite soccer players. We should focus on what model best supports player development. I don't have a suggestion on what that model is but keeping a player in a "club" doesn't seem like the correct path.

[Unregistered]

Very few states hold their state cup in April. Oregon and WA are exceptions, not the rule. The ECNL schedule is built to fit around HS soccer. Therefore the league schedule has to run from November to May with playoffs in June. It is the way it is for a reason, and not to conflict with any particular Oregon USYS competition.

Thanks for the correction.

Obviously, running State Cup in the winter in Oregon is problematic, so I'm not sure how to square this circle. One obvious way would be to encourage ECNL teams to participate in State Cup, and the ECNL tourneys would be consolation tournaments.

[Unregistered]

Man I agree with a lot of this, although if GDA were to become dominate on girls' side we would be facing the same issues you highlight today in the ECNL.

I think the biggest difference and it is actually huge is that the DA is not attempting to staff 2 academy level teams at EACH age group. This to me is a severely limiting trait of ECNL here in Oregon.

For those girls who play at the top level (which is really all the DA is concerned with) the DA will be a much better platform with consolidation.

this is not the same as the Thorns current teams but wait and see. Most of the better players are very interested, at least at my DD's age. Our ECNL team is simply bad.