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Refs out there: When is a shoulder a foul?

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    #16
    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
    It doesn’t matter if your arms are up, down, or you are spinning them around wildly as you run around the field. It also doesn’t matter if you use your arms, your nose, or your belly button. What does matter is that the ref decided that the contact was excessive or impeded the opposing player.
    "The arms may not be used at all, other than for balance—which does not include pushing off or holding the opponent"

    http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/par...oulder-charge/

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      #17
      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
      Friend of mine who did a D2 final as the center ref:

      Rarely call a shoulder unless it's at speed and someone goes flying.

      If you arm is below your shoulder - no foul. Above your shoulder - foul.
      What about stronger/bigger players shoulder charging a smaller/weaker player? I hope you friend knows this:

      "Although often overlooked by spectators, it is important to remember that a player’s natural endowments (speed, strength, height, heft, etc.) may be superior to that of the opponent who is competing with that player for the ball. As a completely natural result, the opponent may not only be bested in the challenge but may in fact wind up on the ground — with no foul having been committed. The mere fact that a player fails in a challenge and falls or is knocked down is what the game is all about (and why coaches must choose carefully in determining which player marks which opponent). Referees do not handicap players by saddling them with artificial responsibilities to be easy on an opponent simply because they are better physically endowed in some way."

      http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/par...oulder-charge/

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
        What about stronger/bigger players shoulder charging a smaller/weaker player? I hope you friend knows this:

        "Although often overlooked by spectators, it is important to remember that a player’s natural endowments (speed, strength, height, heft, etc.) may be superior to that of the opponent who is competing with that player for the ball. As a completely natural result, the opponent may not only be bested in the challenge but may in fact wind up on the ground — with no foul having been committed. The mere fact that a player fails in a challenge and falls or is knocked down is what the game is all about (and why coaches must choose carefully in determining which player marks which opponent). Referees do not handicap players by saddling them with artificial responsibilities to be easy on an opponent simply because they are better physically endowed in some way."

        http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/par...oulder-charge/
        More in reference to pushing off. Didn't say anything about falling over and there wasn't anything in the video about falling over. In fact...not even sure why you used that example in your reply...

        Can't control physics. Big guy will almost always win a 50-50 with a little guy. Doesn't mean it's a foul (but often it's called that way)

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
          "The arms may not be used at all, other than for balance—which does not include pushing off or holding the opponent"

          http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/par...oulder-charge/
          and of course, arms can be used to shield a player from the ball as long as it's not holding or pushing.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
            Sure it does. I replied to this, BTW:



            So, after contact, his came up. It was not part of the play, rather a natural reaction after contact.

            Not a foul.
            Please show me the rule that says it matters whether arm is up or down (I know it doesn’t exist)

            In the end, it doesn’t matter what you or I think; only what the ref thinks. You do understand too they are human and use judgement. They aren’t going to call everything or the game starts to lose its flow. They see more than you or I standing on the sidelines and if they are experienced and good, then they know what to call.

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              #21
              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
              Please show me the rule that says it matters whether arm is up or down (I know it doesn’t exist)

              In the end, it doesn’t matter what you or I think; only what the ref thinks. You do understand too they are human and use judgement. They aren’t going to call everything or the game starts to lose its flow. They see more than you or I standing on the sidelines and if they are experienced and good, then they know what to call.
              right, that's why I gave a ref's judgement....

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                "The arms may not be used at all, other than for balance—which does not include pushing off or holding the opponent"

                http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/par...oulder-charge/
                This is supposed to be a USSF comment that doesn’t appear in the LOTG. It’s their interpretation, which doesn’t make it a fact or hard rule, particularly in an international game under FIFA like the video the OP had. The simple fact is this: according to the LOTG whatever part of the defender’s body is making contact, if the ref decides that contact was careless/reckless, excessive, or impeded the opposing player, they can call it a foul.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                  right, that's why I gave a ref's judgement....
                  I’d question that judgment if you are saying you make foul calls based solely on the positioning of the offender’s arm before, during, or after contact...

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                    This is supposed to be a USSF comment that doesn’t appear in the LOTG. It’s their interpretation, which doesn’t make it a fact or hard rule, particularly in an international game under FIFA like the video the OP had. The simple fact is this: according to the LOTG whatever part of the defender’s body is making contact, if the ref decides that contact was careless/reckless, excessive, or impeded the opposing player, they can call it a foul.
                    of course its an interpretation, but a pretty official one. Also it was in the context of a shoulder charge. So this ref would have called a foul for the push.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                      I’d question that judgment if you are saying you make foul calls based solely on the positioning of the offender’s arm before, during, or after contact...
                      No, knucklehead. As mentioned, it's a guide. But, it's also a referee's guide.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                        what video are you watching? He clearly pushed him in the back.
                        Youre nuts. That was a poor job of shielding the ball by the white player. The red player has a right to get the ball and they came into contact nearly side by side (again, white player did a poor job of shielding). Arms were definitely not raised. Good play by red.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                          Youre nuts. That was a poor job of shielding the ball by the white player. The red player has a right to get the ball and they came into contact nearly side by side (again, white player did a poor job of shielding). Arms were definitely not raised. Good play by red.
                          Exactly. Just a little nudge.

                          Contrary to some opinions from the football crowd, soccer is a contact sport.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                            No, knucklehead. As mentioned, it's a guide. But, it's also a referee's guide.
                            The problem with guides is that instead of reading the LOTG first, young referees learn a particular older referee’s personal guides and then they get interpreted in the young ref’s mind as hard and fast rules. Very few older refs explain that the guides are symptoms of a foul rather than a foul itself. Great example of this is hand balls. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen a ref call a foul over an inadvertent, glancing blow off the hand. They’ve been trained that even if the ball brushes the hand inadvertently, it’s a foul.

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                              #29
                              Shoulder to shoulder contact is not a foul ever in soccer. Two players leaning into each other is part of the sport. Fouls should be called when player extend the arms and this is no longer shoulder to shoulder. I do think hand checking and some hand battling is also not a foul because it is allowing the player to protect themselves especially when going up for headers. It is a foul when you grab and alter the other players ability to play. The problem is referees do not understand the laws of the game and feel any contact especially in women's soccer is a foul. You also have referees that don't call anything (Prison Rules) to call everything (Delicate Flowers) and everything in between. What drives me completely crazy is the inconsistent referee (Russian Roulette) and you don't know what they are going to call or when.

                              My favorite shoulder to should foul is when a smaller player aggressively and recklessly runs into a bigger player and falls down because of basic physics but the referee calls the fall on the bigger player who did not change his body shape or extend his/her arms. Drives me crazy as a coach but not as much as the lack of obstruction calls. I feel this has been completely removed from the laws of the game. I see players boxing out or even setting picks that go uncalled in games.

                              If you had 10 center referees in a game I bet all 10 would make a call differently. As a coach, parent and player I have learned that yelling at referees is like picking battles with your wife or children. About 70% of the time it is not worth it, 20% of the time you do it because you are bored/fun and 10% of the time is because you have a valid argument of great importance.

                              I will leave everybody with one last thought. How many times has the referee change his or her mind after yelling at them? Is it really worth it?

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                                Shoulder to shoulder contact is not a foul ever in soccer. Two players leaning into each other is part of the sport. Fouls should be called when player extend the arms and this is no longer shoulder to shoulder. I do think hand checking and some hand battling is also not a foul because it is allowing the player to protect themselves especially when going up for headers. It is a foul when you grab and alter the other players ability to play. The problem is referees do not understand the laws of the game and feel any contact especially in women's soccer is a foul. You also have referees that don't call anything (Prison Rules) to call everything (Delicate Flowers) and everything in between. What drives me completely crazy is the inconsistent referee (Russian Roulette) and you don't know what they are going to call or when.

                                My favorite shoulder to should foul is when a smaller player aggressively and recklessly runs into a bigger player and falls down because of basic physics but the referee calls the fall on the bigger player who did not change his body shape or extend his/her arms. Drives me crazy as a coach but not as much as the lack of obstruction calls. I feel this has been completely removed from the laws of the game. I see players boxing out or even setting picks that go uncalled in games.

                                If you had 10 center referees in a game I bet all 10 would make a call differently. As a coach, parent and player I have learned that yelling at referees is like picking battles with your wife or children. About 70% of the time it is not worth it, 20% of the time you do it because you are bored/fun and 10% of the time is because you have a valid argument of great importance.

                                I will leave everybody with one last thought. How many times has the referee change his or her mind after yelling at them? Is it really worth it?
                                You lack a basic understanding of the concepts of being a good Referee.

                                " Obstruction " ? Really ?

                                Comment

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