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    #31
    Originally posted by perspective View Post
    But they have a very narrow window to make their money and that's IF they make it to the big leagues (as another poster suggested).

    How many people do you surmise have a choice between being a well-paid professional athlete and being a physician? For that matter, how what percentage of people have a shot at being a physician?

    What seems more dubious is your quote of 70K for a cardiologist in Boston. Police officers and correction officers in the prisons make 70K. I don't know a single psychiatrist who makes less than 200K, and they are generally at the bottom of the physician pay scale along with GPs and pediatricians. If you want to argue that physicians work very hard for the money they do earn I will agree with you, but I don't think they are making 70K.


    You are taking the 70K out of context. I said that a starting invasive cardiologist at one of the Harvard Hospitals will start at 70K. I did not say the average nor did I say the peak. This is a factual number from 4 years ago.

    I am also referring to, as stated, professional ball players in the major leagues (not A, AA, or AAA).

    I will admit that I was initially in error regarding AVERAGE physician salaries in 2013. It is currently listed at approximately 225K with internal medicine doctors averaging 165K. Both of these numbers are below 50% of the lowest paid professional baseball player in the major leagues.

    Yes.....I am saying the physicians have paid more in education and work quite hard for what they get, with the future hope of making not too much less than they make now and hopefully not having to work too many more hours.

    All that said, when you are on the table with your heart attack, or prior to your first surgery and realize that your health is far more important than almost anything else at that time, you will not be so quick to discredit those who are caring for you and refer to them as providing a service similar to that of Wendy's.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by perspective View Post
      But they have a very narrow window to make their money and that's IF they make it to the big leagues (as another poster suggested).

      How many people do you surmise have a choice between being a well-paid professional athlete and being a physician? For that matter, how what percentage of people have a shot at being a physician?

      What seems more dubious is your quote of 70K for a cardiologist in Boston. Police officers and correction officers in the prisons make 70K. I don't know a single psychiatrist who makes less than 200K, and they are generally at the bottom of the physician pay scale along with GPs and pediatricians. If you want to argue that physicians work very hard for the money they do earn I will agree with you, but I don't think they are making 70K.

      Yes, I am going to argue that physicians work hard for what they earn. You have taken the 70K out of context. The statement was that a 'STARTING invasive cardiologist' at a 'Harvard hospital' may be started at 70K. This was the case 4 years ago. It might not be now. This is a fact. You also need to recognize that I am comparing to MAJOR league ball players and not A, AA, or AAA contracts).

      I will admit that I was in error with my estimate of the mean salary of physicians in the US. It is no longer 170K, which was data from 10 years ago. It is currently approx 225,000 with internal medicine doctors averaging about 170,000. These are AVERAGE salaries.

      http://www.medscape.com/features/sli...on/2013/public

      Both data are well below the lowest paid baseball player of the MAJOR leagues (not including A, AA, AAA contracts). The major league contracts are guaranteed (good contract negotiating) whether they plan an inning or not...........most of which did not attend more than college. Just to give you more information, the AVERAGE baseball player salary is approximately 3.3 million dollars.

      Now with Obama-care and socialized medicine (it is coming, if not here already), these physicians are hoping to not have a big drop in income along with the increase in workload. But don't be too upset or too surprised when your next appointment takes 6 months to book...or longer.

      When you are lying in the bed after your first heart attack or before any surgical procedure, hopefully you will appreciate your care-givers more and not put them on the same level at the local Wendy's. Fortunately for you, they do not consider how much they are getting paid for each case.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
        Yes, I am going to argue that physicians work hard for what they earn. You have taken the 70K out of context. The statement was that a 'STARTING invasive cardiologist' at a 'Harvard hospital' may be started at 70K. This was the case 4 years ago. It might not be now. This is a fact. You also need to recognize that I am comparing to MAJOR league ball players and not A, AA, or AAA contracts).

        I will admit that I was in error with my estimate of the mean salary of physicians in the US. It is no longer 170K, which was data from 10 years ago. It is currently approx 225,000 with internal medicine doctors averaging about 170,000. These are AVERAGE salaries.

        http://www.medscape.com/features/sli...on/2013/public

        Both data are well below the lowest paid baseball player of the MAJOR leagues (not including A, AA, AAA contracts). The major league contracts are guaranteed (good contract negotiating) whether they plan an inning or not...........most of which did not attend more than college. Just to give you more information, the AVERAGE baseball player salary is approximately 3.3 million dollars.

        Now with Obama-care and socialized medicine (it is coming, if not here already), these physicians are hoping to not have a big drop in income along with the increase in workload. But don't be too upset or too surprised when your next appointment takes 6 months to book...or longer.

        When you are lying in the bed after your first heart attack or before any surgical procedure, hopefully you will appreciate your care-givers more and not put them on the same level at the local Wendy's. Fortunately for you, they do not consider how much they are getting paid for each case.
        I misunderstood the direction you were going. I thought you were leading to yet another rant about Obama (and of course on cue you added Obama in your edited version), and I was arguing that medical and hospital services SHOULD be more in line with universal health care and not run in a way where management has to answer to stockholders and always be looking for ways to increase margins. Physician salaries won't drop and in most cases should not drop.

        I am very appreciative of my caregivers. I'm a child of a physician.

        Still don't buy your 70K figure even as a starting salary. I'm guessing you are mistaken and talking about a senior resident in cardiology. Or you're talking about an academic who gets some base salary with an understanding of additional compensation from grant money or an outside practice.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
          Yes, I am going to argue that physicians work hard for what they earn. You have taken the 70K out of context. The statement was that a 'STARTING invasive cardiologist' at a 'Harvard hospital' may be started at 70K. This was the case 4 years ago. It might not be now. This is a fact. You also need to recognize that I am comparing to MAJOR league ball players and not A, AA, or AAA contracts).

          I will admit that I was in error with my estimate of the mean salary of physicians in the US. It is no longer 170K, which was data from 10 years ago. It is currently approx 225,000 with internal medicine doctors averaging about 170,000. These are AVERAGE salaries.

          http://www.medscape.com/features/sli...on/2013/public

          Both data are well below the lowest paid baseball player of the MAJOR leagues (not including A, AA, AAA contracts). The major league contracts are guaranteed (good contract negotiating) whether they plan an inning or not...........most of which did not attend more than college. Just to give you more information, the AVERAGE baseball player salary is approximately 3.3 million dollars.

          Now with Obama-care and socialized medicine (it is coming, if not here already), these physicians are hoping to not have a big drop in income along with the increase in workload. But don't be too upset or too surprised when your next appointment takes 6 months to book...or longer.

          When you are lying in the bed after your first heart attack or before any surgical procedure, hopefully you will appreciate your care-givers more and not put them on the same level at the local Wendy's. Fortunately for you, they do not consider how much they are getting paid for each case.
          How is it fair to compare only major league players with doctors? Major league players are the heads of surgery/fellows/etc of pro baseball players. Very few pro baseball players are able to make a good living. Many more doctors (both raw numbers and percentage wise) are able to make a very good living, while also having a career that is much longer than that of a pro ballplayer.

          Comment


            #35
            Anyone who thinks doctors are not extremely negatively affected by Obamacare is nuts (and certainly not a doctor). The thin end of the wedge was universal mandates on free citizens to buy a government-dictated product (bad enough in itself, to be sure). The fat end is universal government insurance, prohibition on physicians accepting cash payments from patients and government control of doctors generally including where they will be assigned to practice, who their patients will be and how much they will be paid. Get ready for a generation of doctors coming from three rungs down ladder from what we know today.

            Don't believe for a moment that government-prescribed diet and exercise aren't far behind. 20 years ago people would have said that the feds forcing people to buy a product was impossible.

            On a related topic, I notice that Barry gave some people a Christmas present - a free pass on the tax penalty associated with the individual mandate. This is just extraordinary (and completely illegal absent a legislative change to current law). Is the idea that he will just tell his IRS not to do their jobs (as with the Justice department and ICE)? Or do all of the people without insurance who file tax returns become tax cheats who Dear Leader then pardons, en masse, like a Moonie wedding at the end of the year? In Obamacare you can see all of the incompetence and totalitarian instincts of this fraudulent president. What an amateur. What a poser. American voters deserve a guy like this clown. Good and hard.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
              Anyone who thinks doctors are not extremely negatively affected by Obamacare is nuts (and certainly not a doctor). The thin end of the wedge was universal mandates on free citizens to buy a government-dictated product (bad enough in itself, to be sure). The fat end is universal government insurance, prohibition on physicians accepting cash payments from patients and government control of doctors generally including where they will be assigned to practice, who their patients will be and how much they will be paid. Get ready for a generation of doctors coming from three rungs down ladder from what we know today.

              Don't believe for a moment that government-prescribed diet and exercise aren't far behind. 20 years ago people would have said that the feds forcing people to buy a product was impossible.

              On a related topic, I notice that Barry gave some people a Christmas present - a free pass on the tax penalty associated with the individual mandate. This is just extraordinary (and completely illegal absent a legislative change to current law). Is the idea that he will just tell his IRS not to do their jobs (as with the Justice department and ICE)? Or do all of the people without insurance who file tax returns become tax cheats who Dear Leader then pardons, en masse, like a Moonie wedding at the end of the year? In Obamacare you can see all of the incompetence and totalitarian instincts of this fraudulent president. What an amateur. What a poser. American voters deserve a guy like this clown. Good and hard.
              And there it is. Exhibit A. Love people who have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

              So far I haven't noticed a single change in how my own private insurance works or in my access to care, and I am glad others can access insurance when they couldn't do so before. I guess you have no idea about the financial and labor burdens "free care" has placed on our emergency rooms and hospitals. And of course every truly progressive country in the world already is way ahead of us.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by perspective View Post
                And there it is. Exhibit A. Love people who have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

                So far I haven't noticed a single change in how my own private insurance works or in my access to care, and I am glad others can access insurance when they couldn't do so before. I guess you have no idea about the financial and labor burdens "free care" has placed on our emergency rooms and hospitals. And of course every truly progressive country in the world already is way ahead of us.
                Nothing to see here, folks. Perspective's access to the private market has been unaffected (for now) by BarryCare so its all good.

                If you wanted to give away other people's money, Perspective, there are far more efficient ways to do it. But it would require you to make the case to the American public to build a higher social safety net. Liberals didn't want to do that. They wanted to get the government's sticky fingers on 1/6 of the US economy and make the government indispensable to an increased number of dependents. Liberals used backroom deals like the "Cornhusker Kickback" (i.e. a bribe), outright fraud and unconstitutional executive authority to jam this monstrosity down our throats and keep it afloat.

                "We have to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it". Well, now you know. But you don't know the half of it yet. Wait until people who THINK that they've gotten away unscathed find out that their plans are also being canceled. When the corporate exemptions run out right after the midterm elections. That's when they learn that they will be paying more for less coverage and that their preferred doctor won't be taking them anymore.

                If you ever wondered what's wrong with affirmative action, now you know. Hire a guy who's never managed anything bigger than his own campaign. Hire a guy who has never earned anything by his own merit. Hire a guy with big ambition but little talent and only his race to peddle as a qualification. The hash he's made of the economy, foreign policy and healthcare shouldn't surprise anyone. We needed a Jackie Robinson and we got a Delmon Young.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Major league players are the heads of surgery/fellows/etc of pro baseball players

                  Very few pro baseball players are able to make a good living.

                  Originally posted by perspective View Post
                  And there it is. Exhibit A. Love people who have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

                  So far I haven't noticed a single change in how my own private insurance works or in my access to care, and I am glad others can access insurance when they couldn't do so before. I guess you have no idea about the financial and labor burdens "free care" has placed on our emergency rooms and hospitals. And of course every truly progressive country in the world already is way ahead of us.

                  As to the first two lines, I am not sure how one would compare Major League players to the 'heads' of surgery/fellows/etc. The groupings expose the ignorance of the poster. The average career of a professional (Major Leagues) baseball player is now 6-7 years. At a minimum salary of 490,000 (add to this expenses and retirement) you have a package worth well more than 3 million dollars....at a minimum. if you claim that they cannot make a good living with that then they are their own worst enemy and clearly have not matured enough to plan for any future.

                  As for Obamacare, your claims are in fact true at this time. Not all have had issues with the implementation of Obamacare at its onset. However, I assume that you have not read the thousands of pages. Fact is, I doubt any of the legislature or senate ever read it either. For those who will be forced to take it, the premiums are more than they are paying now, and the deductible is at least 4000 dollars at the minimum and up to 15,000 for a family. After the first year, the premiums are scheduled to increased by about 40-50%. Many of the 30 million that this is supposedly targeted for will seek subsidy and this, based on the supreme court decision will come out of your taxes i.e. an increase in the open or hidden taxes is occurring and will continue to do so.

                  For those who are forced to take Obamacare, many of the issues and provisions are such that insurers will be able to drop coverage based on predetermined indications. But this still does not affect your personal healthcare as you claim to still have the same coverage.

                  The penalty for an employer to not buy healthcare is less than the cost of buying it so companies are dropping it and splitting the difference with the employees who will now have to buy the 'state plan' or Obamacare. For those, healthcare is immediately changing.

                  If you are, after the first 5 years planning on changing jobs, there is a provision in the plan such that you may not be able to accept the private plan that your new company provides, but instead will have to buy the Obamacare. Now your own coverage is affected.

                  Most important will be the change in workforce. You are not getting the same number or quality of persons going into medicine. Coupled with an increase in the numbers leaving the profession, you will find significant delays in non-emergent care. Couple this with a reduction in reimbursement for many therapies including back surgery for back pain. I hope you back pain isn't so bad.

                  Still don't think your healthcare is going to be affected???? When you reach the medicare age, care will absolutely be rationed. Now, if you still don't think that your care will be affected then you must be a member of GE (waivers), the senate, or legislature.

                  Finally, yes......other countries have socialized medicine as well. Have you ever seen the dental care of most brits???? Yech!!!!! Compared to what you are used to, I don't think you would ever like the care that is provided in Canada, England, Sweden, etc etc......however, like them, I am sure that Americans will get used to it and accept mediocrity.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Wow! I can't believe that that such a promising initially thread had been turned into so boring and annoying debate. All of you guys should go to Talking Politics section.
                    How about this:
                    A horse and a chicken are playing in a meadow. The horse falls into a mud hole and is sinking. He calls to the chicken to go and get the farmer to help pull him out to safety. The chicken runs to the farm but the farmer can't be found. So he drives the farmer's BMW back to the mud hole and ties some rope around the bumper. He then throws the other end of the rope to his friend, the horse, and drives the car forward saving him from sinking! A few days later, the chicken and horse were playing in the meadow again and the chicken fell into the mud hole. The chicken yelled to the horse to go and get some help from the farmer. The horse said, "I think I can stand over the hole!" So he stretched over the width of the hole and said, "Grab for my penis and pull yourself up." And the chicken did and pulled himself to safety.
                    Moral of the Story: If you're hung like a horse, you don't need a BMW to pick up chicks.
                    ======================

                    I'll check on you again tomorrow.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Dbackham View Post
                      Wow! I can't believe that that such a promising initially thread had been turned into so boring and annoying debate. All of you guys should go to Talking Politics section.
                      How about this:
                      A horse and a chicken are playing in a meadow. The horse falls into a mud hole and is sinking. He calls to the chicken to go and get the farmer to help pull him out to safety. The chicken runs to the farm but the farmer can't be found. So he drives the farmer's BMW back to the mud hole and ties some rope around the bumper. He then throws the other end of the rope to his friend, the horse, and drives the car forward saving him from sinking! A few days later, the chicken and horse were playing in the meadow again and the chicken fell into the mud hole. The chicken yelled to the horse to go and get some help from the farmer. The horse said, "I think I can stand over the hole!" So he stretched over the width of the hole and said, "Grab for my penis and pull yourself up." And the chicken did and pulled himself to safety.
                      Moral of the Story: If you're hung like a horse, you don't need a BMW to pick up chicks.
                      ======================

                      I'll check on you again tomorrow.


                      If we were that fortunate in life, whether it be 'hung like a horse', or wealthy beyond belief, then we wouldn't be on TS discussing any of these issues and differences between 'elite' and 'premier' would be inconsequential since we would have clearly out-classed the competition. Since the vast majority of players are not 'hung like a horse', clubs are more able to take advantage of such labels as 'elite' and 'premier' to entice, lure, and trap those who desire to be king. In the end, only genetics can affect how well you are 'hung'. However, training can teach you how to maximize your potential with what you have.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                        Major league players are the heads of surgery/fellows/etc of pro baseball players

                        Very few pro baseball players are able to make a good living.




                        As to the first two lines, I am not sure how one would compare Major League players to the 'heads' of surgery/fellows/etc. The groupings expose the ignorance of the poster. The average career of a professional (Major Leagues) baseball player is now 6-7 years. At a minimum salary of 490,000 (add to this expenses and retirement) you have a package worth well more than 3 million dollars....at a minimum. if you claim that they cannot make a good living with that then they are their own worst enemy and clearly have not matured enough to plan for any future.

                        As for Obamacare, your claims are in fact true at this time. Not all have had issues with the implementation of Obamacare at its onset. However, I assume that you have not read the thousands of pages. Fact is, I doubt any of the legislature or senate ever read it either. For those who will be forced to take it, the premiums are more than they are paying now, and the deductible is at least 4000 dollars at the minimum and up to 15,000 for a family. After the first year, the premiums are scheduled to increased by about 40-50%. Many of the 30 million that this is supposedly targeted for will seek subsidy and this, based on the supreme court decision will come out of your taxes i.e. an increase in the open or hidden taxes is occurring and will continue to do so.

                        For those who are forced to take Obamacare, many of the issues and provisions are such that insurers will be able to drop coverage based on predetermined indications. But this still does not affect your personal healthcare as you claim to still have the same coverage.

                        The penalty for an employer to not buy healthcare is less than the cost of buying it so companies are dropping it and splitting the difference with the employees who will now have to buy the 'state plan' or Obamacare. For those, healthcare is immediately changing.

                        If you are, after the first 5 years planning on changing jobs, there is a provision in the plan such that you may not be able to accept the private plan that your new company provides, but instead will have to buy the Obamacare. Now your own coverage is affected.

                        Most important will be the change in workforce. You are not getting the same number or quality of persons going into medicine. Coupled with an increase in the numbers leaving the profession, you will find significant delays in non-emergent care. Couple this with a reduction in reimbursement for many therapies including back surgery for back pain. I hope you back pain isn't so bad.

                        Still don't think your healthcare is going to be affected???? When you reach the medicare age, care will absolutely be rationed. Now, if you still don't think that your care will be affected then you must be a member of GE (waivers), the senate, or legislature.

                        Finally, yes......other countries have socialized medicine as well. Have you ever seen the dental care of most brits???? Yech!!!!! Compared to what you are used to, I don't think you would ever like the care that is provided in Canada, England, Sweden, etc etc......however, like them, I am sure that Americans will get used to it and accept mediocrity.
                        One more try and then I'll stop.

                        You cannot compare all professional doctors to a subset of professional baseball players. Major league players are only a small subset of all professional ballplayers. Most professional ballplayers struggle to make a living in the minors for year and never make the majors.

                        Yes, when a player makes the majors they will be making a good living and if their career lasts more than a couple of years they should be set for life but, most professional baseball players never make it to that level.

                        Most doctors make a decent living ( average compensation about 220k as per your link). Their careers are likely to be at least 5x longer than that of a baseball player.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                          Nothing to see here, folks. Perspective's access to the private market has been unaffected (for now) by BarryCare so its all good.

                          If you wanted to give away other people's money, Perspective, there are far more efficient ways to do it. But it would require you to make the case to the American public to build a higher social safety net. Liberals didn't want to do that. They wanted to get the government's sticky fingers on 1/6 of the US economy and make the government indispensable to an increased number of dependents. Liberals used backroom deals like the "Cornhusker Kickback" (i.e. a bribe), outright fraud and unconstitutional executive authority to jam this monstrosity down our throats and keep it afloat.

                          "We have to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it". Well, now you know. But you don't know the half of it yet. Wait until people who THINK that they've gotten away unscathed find out that their plans are also being canceled. When the corporate exemptions run out right after the midterm elections. That's when they learn that they will be paying more for less coverage and that their preferred doctor won't be taking them anymore.

                          If you ever wondered what's wrong with affirmative action, now you know. Hire a guy who's never managed anything bigger than his own campaign. Hire a guy who has never earned anything by his own merit. Hire a guy with big ambition but little talent and only his race to peddle as a qualification. The hash he's made of the economy, foreign policy and healthcare shouldn't surprise anyone. We needed a Jackie Robinson and we got a Delmon Young.
                          Wow.

                          "...never earned anything by his own merit"

                          "...little talent and ONLY HIS RACE to peddle as a qualification"

                          Capped off by references to two black athletes.

                          Incredible how some of you can wake up in the morning and confidently assure yourselves that you aren't racist.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                            Most important will be the change in workforce. You are not getting the same number or quality of persons going into medicine.
                            Absolutely false. It's tougher than ever to get in med school with more applicants than ever and not enough residency programs to train them all.

                            Your other comments about Britain and Europe are all the wall.

                            Fascinating to see people use threads like this to interject all of their petty digs when you personally live in an area where you have access to some of the best hospitals and physicians in the entire world, completely taking for granted that you can simply drive into Mass General anytime you want.

                            Not to mention that we've gotten out of two wars and the stock market has tripled.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by perspective View Post
                              Wow.

                              "...never earned anything by his own merit"

                              "...little talent and ONLY HIS RACE to peddle as a qualification"

                              Capped off by references to two black athletes.

                              Incredible how some of you can wake up in the morning and confidently assure yourselves that you aren't racist.
                              If you don't think that race had anything to do with Obama's election, or the way that he has been both attacked and defended over the past 7 years, then you are incredibly naive. Unfortunately, there cannot be a comprehensive discussion about his presidency without race being a very important topic. It's surely not the only thing, but it is critical. To never bring it up is to discuss the success of the New England Patriots over the past 12 years and forget to talk about Tom Brady.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                                If you don't think that race had anything to do with Obama's election, or the way that he has been both attacked and defended over the past 7 years, then you are incredibly naive. Unfortunately, there cannot be a comprehensive discussion about his presidency without race being a very important topic. It's surely not the only thing, but it is critical. To never bring it up is to discuss the success of the New England Patriots over the past 12 years and forget to talk about Tom Brady.
                                Read the quotes I quoted carefully again. They are a far cry from saying that race is a relevant factor in discussing the presidency. And to suggest that rampant and vicious racism hasn't played a role in reactions to the president is unbelievably naive, if you want to talk about naive. Now I'll let you get back to Duck Dynasty.

                                Comment

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