American Youth Shouldn't Keep Scores/Standings

[Unregistered]

The birth year switch has dropped huge numbers from girls soccer across the country. Some moron with a fake British accent convinced us soccer it was a good idea. The rest of the world laughed at us for being so stupid as to follow them. It will hurt US girls/women’s soccer in the long run so the rest of the world is very happy.

Now we have some idiot “consultant” trying to get us to stop keeping score. Guess what. The kids that will drive our country to get better are the hyper competitive girls that want to win so bad they can taste it. The elite talents that will outwork everyone. They are the drivers of our women’s programs over time. Take away wins take away cups and trophy’s and they will go play basketball. Further weakening the future of US women’s soccer.

Why do all the dumbest ideas come from European consultants?

[Unregistered]

The birth year switch has dropped huge numbers from girls soccer across the country. Some moron with a fake British accent convinced us soccer it was a good idea. The rest of the world laughed at us for being so stupid as to follow them. It will hurt US girls/women’s soccer in the long run so the rest of the world is very happy.

Now we have some idiot “consultant” trying to get us to stop keeping score. Guess what. The kids that will drive our country to get better are the hyper competitive girls that want to win so bad they can taste it. The elite talents that will outwork everyone. They are the drivers of our women’s programs over time. Take away wins take away cups and trophy’s and they will go play basketball. Further weakening the future of US women’s soccer.

Why do all the dumbest ideas come from European consultants?

The birth year switch did make soccer numbers plummet, particularly at the youngest ages, and at both the 8th/9th and 12th/graduated debacle created by birth year. Have heard rumors that ECNL is switching to graduation year age groups to right the ship and attract more players away from GDA. Smart idea. College recruiting would also be a breeze and there would be full teams at 00 and 01 this year if it was birth year. Many 00 and 01 Oregon players yet to commit. If they ever want to play in a non ecnl tournament, they’d just play “up” a year - which they usually do anyway.

[Unregistered]

The birth year switch did make soccer numbers plummet, particularly at the youngest ages, and at both the 8th/9th and 12th/graduated debacle created by birth year. Have heard rumors that ECNL is switching to graduation year age groups to right the ship and attract more players away from GDA. Smart idea. College recruiting would also be a breeze and there would be full teams at 00 and 01 this year if it was birth year. Many 00 and 01 Oregon players yet to commit. If they ever want to play in a non ecnl tournament, they’d just play “up” a year - which they usually do anyway.

Meant there would be full and separate teams at 00 and 01 this year if it was Graduation Year age groups. Next year will have full 01 and full 02 separate teams at the height of Oregon recruiting.

[Unregistered]

OYSA knows how the U11 teams do in league play, they just don't publish standings.

Playing in the wrong flight at a tournament won't ruin anyone's season. If it does, you are focusing on the wrong things.

This year's fall version of the u11 leagues was a case study in complete incompetence by the trusted OYSA.

Maybe this is the DOC's fault?

10 games and $1000 fee + ridiculous away travel to play teams 3 clicks better one week, the next week 4 clicks worse with a new spectacle on the horizon or mystery competition every weekend. Grab bag Soccer with a hefty fee.

This yo-yo league outcome, does little for development and enthusiasm from parents, players, coaches and even referee's. It was a joke.

The stain lasts a long time for the 1st time 'classic' player and parents.

Ruined no, easily avoidable.

[Unregistered]

The birth year switch has dropped huge numbers from girls soccer across the country. Some moron with a fake British accent convinced us soccer it was a good idea. The rest of the world laughed at us for being so stupid as to follow them. It will hurt US girls/women’s soccer in the long run so the rest of the world is very happy.

Now we have some idiot “consultant” trying to get us to stop keeping score. Guess what. The kids that will drive our country to get better are the hyper competitive girls that want to win so bad they can taste it. The elite talents that will outwork everyone. They are the drivers of our women’s programs over time. Take away wins take away cups and trophy’s and they will go play basketball. Further weakening the future of US women’s soccer.

Why do all the dumbest ideas come from European consultants?

birth year change was bad. a lot of kids quit. girls want to play with their friends, even really talented kids.

[Unregistered]

This year's fall version of the u11 leagues was a case study in complete incompetence by the trusted OYSA.

08 parent here. Fall league was fine. Most of the kid's matches were competitive. Maybe the division you play in was different?

Maybe this is the DOC's fault?

A lot if might be; DOC opinion has a fair bit to do with where a given team is sorted. And some directors/coaches like to "challenge" their kids and play in a more difficult division than appropriate. Others try to get into the weakest division they can so they can bag a trophy. It's on the honor system.

10 games and $1000 fee + ridiculous away travel to play teams 3 clicks better one week, the next week 4 clicks worse with a new spectacle on the horizon or mystery competition every weekend. Grab bag Soccer with a hefty fee.

$1k divided among a 16-player roster is, what, $62.50 per kid? Compared to a summer tourney, where you play almost the same fee for 3-5 games, this is nothing.

And other than one drive to Eugene, no travel required. Your kid's division might vary.

This yo-yo league outcome, does little for development and enthusiasm from parents, players, coaches and even referee's. It was a joke.

The stain lasts a long time for the 1st time 'classic' player and parents.

Ruined no, easily avoidable.

And what, O great oracle of youth soccer, would you do differently?

[Unregistered]

08 parent here. Fall league was fine. Most of the kid's matches were competitive. Maybe the division you play in was different?



A lot if might be; DOC opinion has a fair bit to do with where a given team is sorted. And some directors/coaches like to "challenge" their kids and play in a more difficult division than appropriate. Others try to get into the weakest division they can so they can bag a trophy. It's on the honor system.



$1k divided among a 16-player roster is, what, $62.50 per kid? Compared to a summer tourney, where you play almost the same fee for 3-5 games, this is nothing.

And other than one drive to Eugene, no travel required. Your kid's division might vary.



And what, O great oracle of youth soccer, would you do differently?

Not OP, but I would start tracking standings in some fashion younger, not older, if for no other reason to assist in getting teams placed properly in leagues/tournaments.

[Unregistered]

Not OP, but I would start tracking standings in some fashion younger, not older, if for no other reason to assist in getting teams placed properly in leagues/tournaments.

People worried about teams in the wrong division, it has NOTHING to do with standings. The DOC's and Coaches pick what division they want their teams to be in. Its up to them to be informed and fair about the placement. There is absolutely nothing to keep a coach from sand bagging their team if thats what they want to do, or putting their team in a division way to high to make it look like they are a better team than the are to the parents. If your team is in the wrong division, the first place you should look at is the coach. Keeping standings wont change that. Teams change every year, and regardless hte previous standings a coach can tell the league where they feel there team belongs, and most of the time will get there way, as there are no rules in place.

[Unregistered]

Not OP, but I would start tracking standings in some fashion younger, not older, if for no other reason to assist in getting teams placed properly in leagues/tournaments.

Someone already mentioned above that OYSA knows the league standings and can use that information to seed next year's leagues; they just don't publish them.

Not sure accurate flighting of summer tournaments is an OYSA responsibility.

At any rate--OYSA has not published results at U10 and below for quite a few years. Last year they stopped publishing for U11, previously they did.

[Unregistered]

Someone already mentioned above that OYSA knows the league standings and can use that information to seed next year's leagues; they just don't publish them.

Not sure accurate flighting of summer tournaments is an OYSA responsibility.

At any rate--OYSA has not published results at U10 and below for quite a few years. Last year they stopped publishing for U11, previously they did.

Entry year into OYSA has always been a crap shoot. Hard to get team coaches, DOC, and OYSA all think along the same lines; I think the absence of public date hinders in this regard . . . to be clear, I think DOCS get the u11 standings data as well, but getting that data to coaches in enough time to actually analyze is slowed down in the current setup. That is partially an internal club thing, but would be easier if everyone knew going into a seating process that "yellow really struggled last year in premier, the rays blew out everyone at d2".

I think the broader, more interesting question, is whether there is any data to support de-emphasize standings at u11 leads to be better development results. I've heard the theories, but never seen data on that point.

On the whole question of what folks are doing overseas - totally antidotal, but perception is that northern European countries are de-emphasizing standings at younger ages, but that may not be true in Latin countries. No support at all for that assertion, just reflecting on what I've heard or read from folks who have traveled to European Academies.

Apparently Ajax doesn't mind bragging about their u9s beating the crap out of someone else's u9s, but folks who know more than me sure seem to think northern european countries are de-emphasizing standings at younger ages, while heard no such thing about other countries that are really good at producing world class soccer players (Argentina, Brazil, Spain).

I don't know of any country that isn't posting standings for u12-14s (appears to be a unique DA thing), but generally curious if others of how found that they don't.

[Unregistered]

Entry year into OYSA has always been a crap shoot. Hard to get team coaches, DOC, and OYSA all think along the same lines; I think the absence of public date hinders in this regard . . . to be clear, I think DOCS get the u11 standings data as well, but getting that data to coaches in enough time to actually analyze is slowed down in the current setup. That is partially an internal club thing, but would be easier if everyone knew going into a seating process that "yellow really struggled last year in premier, the rays blew out everyone at d2".

I think the broader, more interesting question, is whether there is any data to support de-emphasize standings at u11 leads to be better development results. I've heard the theories, but never seen data on that point.

On the whole question of what folks are doing overseas - totally antidotal, but perception is that northern European countries are de-emphasizing standings at younger ages, but that may not be true in Latin countries. No support at all for that assertion, just reflecting on what I've heard or read from folks who have traveled to European Academies.

Apparently Ajax doesn't mind bragging about their u9s beating the crap out of someone else's u9s, but folks who know more than me sure seem to think northern european countries are de-emphasizing standings at younger ages, while heard no such thing about other countries that are really good at producing world class soccer players (Argentina, Brazil, Spain).

I don't know of any country that isn't posting standings for u12-14s (appears to be a unique DA thing), but generally curious if others of how found that they don't.

Outside of potentially using for placement (which you have established the league itself could still keep track of standings and use it for placements without posting the standings somewhere) what value is there in posting the scores/standings online for everyone in the league?

Notice i'm not saying to not keep score in a game. Yes keep score, teach kids about winning/losing, teach kids what to do when up 1 goal or down 1 goal. Report the score to the league afterwards so they can track if teams are in the right divisions. All that can be done without posting standings/scores online. What value does posting it online actually accomplish? When you think about it that way the only real answers are so parents can see if there team is 1st or not. So they can compare their team against other teams. so they can brag about their team. There is absolutely no development value in posting standings online. I can't tell you how many times I've seen in a fall league a soccer parent say "if we win the last 2 games and they tie or lose 1 then we can win league". Who cares about that. What that thinking at 11 years old leads to is coaches/parents forgeting what their focus should be on (development) and instead making decisions to win a game even if that turns them into a direct bootball team, cuz you know they need to finish 1st.

[Unregistered]

08 parent here. Fall league was fine. Most of the kid's matches were competitive. Maybe the division you play in was different?
A lot if might be; DOC opinion has a fair bit to do with where a given team is sorted. And some directors/coaches like to "challenge" their kids and play in a more difficult division than appropriate. Others try to get into the weakest division they can so they can bag a trophy. It's on the honor system.$1k divided among a 16-player roster is, what, $62.50 per kid? Compared to a summer tourney, where you play almost the same fee for 3-5 games, this is nothing.And other than one drive to Eugene, no travel required. Your kid's division might vary.And what, O great oracle of youth soccer, would you do differently?

Not a parent, just have access to all the crazy lopsided results across all of the 08 divisions this fall in the OYSA. Guess what there were more than 6 leagues in this age group.

This is a big picture discussion, granted, which may be above your singular perspective which is oddly different than the norm for the age group. This is about results across all divisions. An outlier 08 league that was competitive, many close games, is the exception in this case.

Putting 'honor system' and DOC in the same sentence.
You do have a wicked sense of humor or are truly a clueless parent goof.
Hoping the former, but more than likely the latter.

Math: 9v9 teams carry on average 12 to 14 players. OYSA League fee $1000/13=Ball Park $80 per kid. For what? the club provides the fields the biggest capital expense and the OYSA gives the club no payment for that.

Outside of paying the ref (only 1 at this OYSA age) lets say they(ref) gets $50 to $60 for a matchThat's $25 to $30 fee per team per game around $250 to $300 for a season.

Are you suggesting the remote scheduler and the accompanying software/website should get the balance of $750 or thereabouts? Seriously that is messed up.

In a tournament setting you don't supply the fields, like a club team does in a league setting, in tournaments the hosting club has to cover the cost of all the fields they use and they aint cheap on a per game basis & they use more than 1 incompetent referee at their matches. So the cost for a tourney is going to be much more than a league where you bring the fields free to the governing association (OYSA)
I digress since you don't understand what the economics actually are. Furthermore a Tourney director does far more due diligence than the OYSA, they (tourney directors) want to keep teams coming back year after year so placement is critical (gold, silver bronze). OYSA has no such pressure and the outcomes reflect this sorry disposition.

Half of your OYSA Fall & Spring league games are on the 'road' or Oregon Trail these days. Please go look at the leagues to have a better understanding of the 'travel' required at this birthyear.

What would I do differently?

At least consider doing some due diligence in this process. Is that too much to ask?

[Unregistered]

That's a great post.

There's way, way too much rec soccer being packaged as more than it is. It's robbery.

[Unregistered]

Outside of potentially using for placement (which you have established the league itself could still keep track of standings and use it for placements without posting the standings somewhere) what value is there in posting the scores/standings online for everyone in the league?

Notice i'm not saying to not keep score in a game. Yes keep score, teach kids about winning/losing, teach kids what to do when up 1 goal or down 1 goal. Report the score to the league afterwards so they can track if teams are in the right divisions. All that can be done without posting standings/scores online. What value does posting it online actually accomplish? When you think about it that way the only real answers are so parents can see if there team is 1st or not. So they can compare their team against other teams. so they can brag about their team. There is absolutely no development value in posting standings online. I can't tell you how many times I've seen in a fall league a soccer parent say "if we win the last 2 games and they tie or lose 1 then we can win league". Who cares about that. What that thinking at 11 years old leads to is coaches/parents forgeting what their focus should be on (development) and instead making decisions to win a game even if that turns them into a direct bootball team, cuz you know they need to finish 1st.

Solving for parent bragging is the least of our problems. Some of them are rather sophisticated and find ways to brag about other ridiculous things - such as the useless pullbacks theirs kid performs that go nowhere or how cute their british coach's accent is.

Soccer is a team game played over a season - standings feel like a natural part of that (albeit, far, far from the most important part of it). A part of developing is thinking about something beyond today's game.

Any parent who assesses their child's experience entirely through the lens of where the team placed is an idiot. Fortunately most don't.

[Unregistered]

Solving for parent bragging is the least of our problems. Some of them are rather sophisticated and find ways to brag about other ridiculous things - such as the useless pullbacks theirs kid performs that go nowhere or how cute their british coach's accent is.

Soccer is a team game played over a season - standings feel like a natural part of that (albeit, far, far from the most important part of it). A part of developing is thinking about something beyond today's game.

Any parent who assesses their child's experience entirely through the lens of where the team placed is an idiot. Fortunately most don't.

You bring up a point with the need for players to develop thinking about beyond todays game. I think you need to ask yourself at what point in a players development is that important? At 10 years old they should be thinking about nothing more than developing thier individual skills, decision making on the field and when it the right time to dribble/pass/shoot (decision making on the field). You can teach a player how to win in a game, or the idea of thinking beyond todays game at any age, but the older a player gets the harder it becomes for them to grow in their basic skills. So once again at the younger ages there is absolutely no reason to worry or even post standings.