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At what age should winning be important?

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    #16
    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
    Eeeasssyyyyy there cowboy. You're off on a tangent and while you are getting your Monday morning vent out, otherwise you're just spouting.

    I never said it was the most important thing, and never advocated winning over development. But, the reality is (and I said it already) is that developing a player means they learn how to win, how to lose, how to play while ahead, how to play from behind, how to protect a lead, etc. All that is part of development. Winning by a touchdown doesn't develop a player, but losing 3-2 likely does.

    As long as the intent of the game, any game, is to do more of something than a group of people you are plying your trade against, then playing to, and for the result, will matter.
    The reality is that u can win and learn nothing in soccer. You can try to play the game and learn to actually play the game.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
      The reality is that u can win and learn nothing in soccer. You can try to play the game and learn to actually play the game.
      I'm pretty sure you guys are agreeing with one another. I don't think that person is advocating for winning over development, he's just saying that playing in different situations is important for development. This isn't a participation trophy = development vs. playing to win argument between you guys. Btw, people who make that argument are tools.

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        #18
        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
        The reality is that u can win and learn nothing in soccer. You can try to play the game and learn to actually play the game.

        If you are trying to be an idiot, or it just comes naturally.

        Winning doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to developing. Again, it has to be a part of development. The psychological/mentality of a player is one of the pillars of the game. Do they understand how to protect a lead? Do their heads' drop and lose their shlt when they go behind? Are they changing their tactics to protect the lead? To try to claw back into the game if behind? All of that is an important part of a player's development, and can only be done if you are keeping score.

        Personally, I'm perfectly fine if my kid plays every game to a one-goal margin, win or lose. I'd love a mix of both so they can DEVELOP the mentality it takes to win.

        We aren't too far off on our opinions, but seems like your Monday morning density is preventing it from sinking in for you.

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          #19
          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
          If you are trying to be an idiot, or it just comes naturally.

          Winning doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to developing. Again, it has to be a part of development. The psychological/mentality of a player is one of the pillars of the game. Do they understand how to protect a lead? Do their heads' drop and lose their shlt when they go behind? Are they changing their tactics to protect the lead? To try to claw back into the game if behind? All of that is an important part of a player's development, and can only be done if you are keeping score.

          Personally, I'm perfectly fine if my kid plays every game to a one-goal margin, win or lose. I'd love a mix of both so they can DEVELOP the mentality it takes to win.

          We aren't too far off on our opinions, but seems like your Monday morning density is preventing it from sinking in for you.
          You said the dreaded "one-goal margin" phrase! There are some on here that aren't satisfied unless their (no distinction between their and their kid's) team has beat the other team until submission with a 10+ goal to nothing VICTORY.

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            #20
            There can be a lot of cross over on the Venn diagram of winning and development. They don't have to be completely separate. You also can learn when you lose. But when the emphasis is only on winning game, everyone loses.

            Ask yourself - is my kid improving? is the whole team improving? is he being challenged by teammates and games? does the team at least stay competitive in most games even if they don't win them all? do they give meaningful playing time to try out what's being learned in practice? is the coach and the players (and yours) motivated and excited at practices and games (or going through the motions)?

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              #21
              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
              There can be a lot of cross over on the Venn diagram of winning and development. They don't have to be completely separate. You also can learn when you lose. But when the emphasis is only on winning game, everyone loses.

              Ask yourself - is my kid improving? is the whole team improving? is he being challenged by teammates and games? does the team at least stay competitive in most games even if they don't win them all? do they give meaningful playing time to try out what's being learned in practice? is the coach and the players (and yours) motivated and excited at practices and games (or going through the motions)?
              The “going through the motions” part is way too prevalent out there, very few coaches/trainers actually take the time to give individual advice especially to the kids that need it most. Most coaches would rather dismiss players and replace them with next in line. Sad as very little time is invested on actually developing and motivating players.

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                #22
                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                The “going through the motions” part is way too prevalent out there, very few coaches/trainers actually take the time to give individual advice especially to the kids that need it most. Most coaches would rather dismiss players and replace them with next in line. Sad as very little time is invested on actually developing and motivating players.
                It's all about the $$$ and securing their spot with the club. On the whole coaches are rarely satisfied with their current roster, and bringing in kids for practices and ID clinics all through the year is commonplace. Dismissal of kids is an fortunate side effect. There are plenty of coaches that don't know how to develop a player and/or a roster, so the rolling admission strategy works well. There's always a new sucker parent willing to sign up.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                  It's all about the $$$ and securing their spot with the club. On the whole coaches are rarely satisfied with their current roster, and bringing in kids for practices and ID clinics all through the year is commonplace. Dismissal of kids is an fortunate side effect. There are plenty of coaches that don't know how to develop a player and/or a roster, so the rolling admission strategy works well. There's always a new sucker parent willing to sign up.
                  what is the new moderating going on, then your post never appears? Nothing controversial here so I'm posting it again

                  To some extent I can't blame coaches. They have to keep club owners happy to keep their jobs. Having a winning record helps them do that. How? Because PARENTS can't tell good coaching from bad (many never played the game at all) so they go with the better records. To them winning = developing. The top teams must be the "best" ones, right? Never mind that it may not be development at all, just simple talent accumulation, or that it may be a terrible fit for their kid.

                  Coach pay is also crap; it's the club owners that make coin

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                    what is the new moderating going on, then your post never appears? Nothing controversial here so I'm posting it again

                    To some extent I can't blame coaches. They have to keep club owners happy to keep their jobs. Having a winning record helps them do that. How? Because PARENTS can't tell good coaching from bad (many never played the game at all) so they go with the better records. To them winning = developing. The top teams must be the "best" ones, right? Never mind that it may not be development at all, just simple talent accumulation, or that it may be a terrible fit for their kid.

                    Coach pay is also crap; it's the club owners that make coin
                    I'm the guy you quoted and I agree with you. Parents and clubs share in the blame. I've spoken to many parents looking at gotsoccer rankings to get an idea which team their kid should try out for and being jealous of teams posting about rankings on facebook. They "just want to be on a winning team". That's ridiculous, but it goes to what you said. They don't know what is a good coach or what is a good team. They see the score line, they see goals, and they see medals. Everyone loves winning.

                    Clubs absolutely share in the blame. It's a business and they need to make money. What do they care if the roster for a full sided team balloons to 25+ or that a bunch of kids who originally made a team have to sit because of new acquisitions. Success is making money and that attitude transfers to their coaches.

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                      #25
                      No one has answered the question. What are they developing for? What is the end game? There are kids playing the game for all sorts of reasons at differing levels. Maybe they enjoy playing kick and run and winning games?

                      Too many people blinded by the Club soccer rhetoric of teaching a sport the "right" way as if there is only one.

                      The only people that get paid for winning are coaches. Why should they put that on the back burner for some ideal that can cost them their livelihood?

                      Youth sports is a racket, especially in sports that lack a well paid professional end game.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                        It's all about the $$$ and securing their spot with the club. On the whole coaches are rarely satisfied with their current roster, and bringing in kids for practices and ID clinics all through the year is commonplace. Dismissal of kids is an fortunate side effect. There are plenty of coaches that don't know how to develop a player and/or a roster, so the rolling admission strategy works well. There's always a new sucker parent willing to sign up.
                        You’re correct but cmon how many people can fall for the nonsense that takes place over and over? I know this is rare but if you can find a place that is well run and you can trust that is key. You cannot imagine how much dishonesty exists in the pitches out there to get parents and kids to sign the dotted line. Even worse they tell these later dismissed kids that they are “college” level players yet they do no work what’s so ever to prepare and develop these players for that level.

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                          #27
                          again with the moderating

                          That's why parents need to really figure out what their kids want from this activity called soccer - because for many it's just an activity. Their kids aren't really that into it, which is why so many drop out in middle and early high school. If your kid just wants to play on a decent team and have some fun, you definitely don't need any of the fancy travel leagues. If they want more than that, help them seek it out. Watching other teams play can be eye opening for them. The minute mine saw a higher level team he became laser focused on that. That was what he wanted and he worked at it. He could have just watched, shrugged his shoulders and moved on, stuck with his current team and been happy with that.

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                            #28
                            Ask Michael Jordan. Ask Cristiano Ronaldo. Ask Tom Brady. Ask Wayne Gretzky.

                            Pretty sure they will all say the same thing.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                              I'm the guy you quoted and I agree with you. Parents and clubs share in the blame. I've spoken to many parents looking at gotsoccer rankings to get an idea which team their kid should try out for and being jealous of teams posting about rankings on facebook. They "just want to be on a winning team". That's ridiculous, but it goes to what you said. They don't know what is a good coach or what is a good team. They see the score line, they see goals, and they see medals. Everyone loves winning.

                              Clubs absolutely share in the blame. It's a business and they need to make money. What do they care if the roster for a full sided team balloons to 25+ or that a bunch of kids who originally made a team have to sit because of new acquisitions. Success is making money and that attitude transfers to their coaches.
                              Trainers have to earn a living too so let’s be fair here they have to do whatever it takes. It’s basically like being salesmen to a certain extent. That in itself is more important to their business than anything else, more than training, results etc. If they are able to sell people on the future and keep bringing in customers they have done their jobs.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                                Trainers have to earn a living too so let’s be fair here they have to do whatever it takes. It’s basically like being salesmen to a certain extent. That in itself is more important to their business than anything else, more than training, results etc. If they are able to sell people on the future and keep bringing in customers they have done their jobs.
                                No doubt and I agree as well. Trainers (how ever well intentioned) are being set up to swim in that system. There are a few good, upfront ones out there, but there are also sleeze bags that take advantage of parents who don't know anything about soccer. To the person who asked before how many times can parents fall for the same crap. It's literally all the time ever season and during seasons. You get a call from a coach that saw your kid and bring them down for a practice. Next thing you know you're being told how awesome they are, they have college scholarship written all over them, look how great my team is, your kid will fit right in, and on and on. Parents eat this stuff up.

                                The poster above is right. You need to understand what your kid wants out of it, where they actually fit in on terms of level, how much travel you can swing (ton of township parents get to a club and start complaining about an hour+ for a scrimmage), can you actually trust your club and coach, is winning important above all other things, etc. For the love of god please stop going through gotsoccer and youth soccer ranks to compare teams. Regardless of what someone tells you on Facebook, those ranks don't actually mean you're #2 in the state or whatever. A ton of those high ranking teams would get killed if they played actually good teams or their rank would drop off they stopped sandbagging tournaments and playing in badly stocked tournaments.

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