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    #16
    Re: Intent to injure - yellow cards ?

    Originally posted by Anonymous
    Saw some ugly play at a tournament game today. (girls)
    There were several plays where there was no attempt to play the ball.

    The last straw was a shirt grab and tackle at midfield that got the entire players bench off their seats, not just the overreacting parents.
    Fortunately, other than the bumps and bruises, there were no apparent serious injuries.

    I think the officials do the best job they can, some are just better than others. I am all for physical play, and I love to see a good, legal slide tackle. My problem is when they do not step in to protect the players from unduly rough play, and intent to injure. This particular game reached the point where there were frustrated players just throwing their bodies at the opponent.

    Why bring the yellow cards if you are never, ever going to use them.
    What was the situation with the shirt grab - did the ref allow for advantage? I had a situation last night where a defender grabbed the jersey (a real fistfull) of the player with the ball but he broke away. Immediately the bench and players started hollering for a foul. I let the play carry on and he scored. You can't have it both ways. I talked to the defender and told him a second flagrant instance would get him a yellow.

    Comment


      #17
      I appreciate sarcasm as much as anybody, and generally I agree with Cujo that partisan fans are rarely in the great postion (Literally or figuratively) that they think they are. However, in HS the fact that so many games are played in stadiums were fans get an elevated vantage point and many of the refs do have "issues" with mobility I think that fans do find themselves with a better view of the game. I never pay much heed to a fans belief on off-side. They simply are not looking for it until after the call, making their perspective always questionable. However, for many other calls they do see things that refs miss.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by reality
        I appreciate sarcasm as much as anybody, and generally I agree with Cujo that partisan fans are rarely in the great postion (Literally or figuratively) that they think they are. However, in HS the fact that so many games are played in stadiums were fans get an elevated vantage point and many of the refs do have "issues" with mobility I think that fans do find themselves with a better view of the game. I never pay much heed to a fans belief on off-side. They simply are not looking for it until after the call, making their perspective always questionable. However, for many other calls they do see things that refs miss.
        I agree that lack of mobility and fitness is an issue for some refs. That being said I would estimate that the vast majority of complaints about refs stem from fan's frustration that the results of the game are going in the wrong direction. I firmly believe that most refs are unbiased. I reffed a HS game Saturday morning and one of the teams was the local HS and I knew a few players. I am new to officiating and wondered how I would handle the situation. I found that I was so focused on getting my calls right that I really didn't care who won or lost.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Cujo

          Of course you are correct, because on the sidelines you are always in a better position than the ref to determine offside and fouls. Since they are closer to the play they have a worse view than you do. The most competent judges are fans who have never played the game and have 4D vision that enables them to see player positions as if they were on the field even if they are 110 yards away from where the ball is. Furthermore all referees are rooting against your team. In fact they root against both teams. Instead of headgear and beep tests leagues should start mandating muzzles for certain spectators.
          I found this one in another forum. It's slightly edited for the benefit of this discussion:

          Referees should be allowed to carry guns.

          Death sentence to any parent yelling "OFFSIDES!"
          Originally posted by Cujo
          What was the situation with the shirt grab - did the ref allow for advantage? I had a situation last night where a defender grabbed the jersey (a real fistfull) of the player with the ball but he broke away. Immediately the bench and players started hollering for a foul. I let the play carry on and he scored. You can't have it both ways. I talked to the defender and told him a second flagrant instance would get him a yellow.
          Good point, Cujo. Many see the foul, but not the advantage. I'm not sure which is worse, the ref that doesn't see the foul or the ref that takes away advantage. I guess it all depends on what team you are cheering for. :D

          Originally posted by Cujo
          That being said I would estimate that the vast majority of complaints about refs stem from fan's frustration that the results of the game are going in the wrong direction. I firmly believe that most refs are unbiased.
          Would you say the same about the officials in last night's Patriots v Colts game??? :shock:
          Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

          Comment


            #20
            Re: When to be obnoxious

            Originally posted by Cujo
            Originally posted by Anonymous
            I was at a high school game the other day in which the official was either terribly biased or just plain terrible. After the fourth beyond blatant offsides resulted in a goal (and the eventual margin of victory) I yelled at the ref from the side lines. This guy was so bad a spectator from the other team actually walked over to me offer his condolences. That said, I am sure you can imagine the reaction I got from the other parents around me.

            Why is it now that when we see something that is bad in a sporting event we are expected to clap politely and keep out mouths shut? Why are officials who are getting paid to perform a job beyond reproach? Since when is it bad to be competitive or worse yet a fan? Why is wrong to show passionate support for your team? Having been involved in sports my whole life I can tell you that this is not how it used to be.
            Of course you are correct, because on the sidelines you are always in a better position than the ref to determine offside and fouls. Since they are closer to the play they have a worse view than you do. The most competent judges are fans who have never played the game and have 4D vision that enables them to see player positions as if they were on the field even if they are 110 yards away from where the ball is. Furthermore all referees are rooting against your team. In fact they root against both teams. Instead of headgear and beep tests leagues should start mandating muzzles for certain spectators.
            As opposed to those on the sideline that have played (and some have reffed) who clearly understand the offside ruke, or can tell the difference between legal body contact and a foul?

            How in the world can you hold a brush as wide as you use to paint absilutely everybody?

            It's like saying "Cujo is a moron, so everyone who lives in New Hampshire must be a moron".

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by FSM
              Originally posted by Cujo

              Of course you are correct, because on the sidelines you are always in a better position than the ref to determine offside and fouls. Since they are closer to the play they have a worse view than you do. The most competent judges are fans who have never played the game and have 4D vision that enables them to see player positions as if they were on the field even if they are 110 yards away from where the ball is. Furthermore all referees are rooting against your team. In fact they root against both teams. Instead of headgear and beep tests leagues should start mandating muzzles for certain spectators.
              I found this one in another forum. It's slightly edited for the benefit of this discussion:

              Referees should be allowed to carry guns.

              Death sentence to any parent yelling "OFFSIDES!"
              Originally posted by Cujo
              What was the situation with the shirt grab - did the ref allow for advantage? I had a situation last night where a defender grabbed the jersey (a real fistfull) of the player with the ball but he broke away. Immediately the bench and players started hollering for a foul. I let the play carry on and he scored. You can't have it both ways. I talked to the defender and told him a second flagrant instance would get him a yellow.
              Good point, Cujo. Many see the foul, but not the advantage. I'm not sure which is worse, the ref that doesn't see the foul or the ref that takes away advantage. I guess it all depends on what team you are cheering for. :D

              Originally posted by Cujo
              That being said I would estimate that the vast majority of complaints about refs stem from fan's frustration that the results of the game are going in the wrong direction. I firmly believe that most refs are unbiased.
              Would you say the same about the officials in last night's Patriots v Colts game??? :shock:
              Unfortunately I had four indoor games to ref last night from 5pm to 9pm so I missed the game. My wife did tell me that she thought the Hobbs interference call was terrible. The Samuel call was borderline but the Herald pic in the Sports section clearly shows him grabbing Gonzalez' arm.

              I am still very new to officiating but the one thing I am doing is I am trying to let the play develop and wait a few seconds for the play to resolve itself before I blow the whistle. I want the game to have flow. On more than one occassion teams scored last night when I let them have advantage.

              Comment


                #22
                Re: When to be obnoxious

                Originally posted by Anonymous
                Originally posted by Cujo
                Originally posted by Anonymous
                I was at a high school game the other day in which the official was either terribly biased or just plain terrible. After the fourth beyond blatant offsides resulted in a goal (and the eventual margin of victory) I yelled at the ref from the side lines. This guy was so bad a spectator from the other team actually walked over to me offer his condolences. That said, I am sure you can imagine the reaction I got from the other parents around me.

                Why is it now that when we see something that is bad in a sporting event we are expected to clap politely and keep out mouths shut? Why are officials who are getting paid to perform a job beyond reproach? Since when is it bad to be competitive or worse yet a fan? Why is wrong to show passionate support for your team? Having been involved in sports my whole life I can tell you that this is not how it used to be.

                Of course you are correct, because on the sidelines you are always in a better position than the ref to determine offside and fouls. Since they are closer to the play they have a worse view than you do. The most competent judges are fans who have never played the game and have 4D vision that enables them to see player positions as if they were on the field even if they are 110 yards away from where the ball is. Furthermore all referees are rooting against your team. In fact they root against both teams. Instead of headgear and beep tests leagues should start mandating muzzles for certain spectators.
                As opposed to those on the sideline that have played (and some have reffed) who clearly understand the offside ruke, or can tell the difference between legal body contact and a foul?

                How in the world can you hold a brush as wide as you use to paint absilutely everybody?

                It's like saying "Cujo is a moron, so everyone who lives in New Hampshire must be a moron".
                At any given time about 5 to 10% of the fans are in a position to determine where the attacking players are on the field. Even being 10 yards away from the last defender skews your perspective.

                As for fouls - some are blatant and some are obvious. One call that a lot of experienced fans miss is obstruction. It looks like one player committed a foul but in actuality they impeded progress with the ball being outside playing distance. They get knocked down but it is their infraction. 50-50 balls also can be misleading - frequently the larger player or the one with better leverage stays on their feet. Just because someone goes down does not mean there is a foul. From 50 yards away what looks like tripping is not. The ref (if positioned properly) can tell if contact is made with the ball. The fans cannot always. This is why refs are on the field and not standing ON the sidelines with the fans. Rule number one is that your eyes can really decieve you. Especially when you want your team to win.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Of course you are correct, because on the sidelines you are always in a better position than the ref to determine offside and fouls. Since they are closer to the play they have a worse view than you do.
                  My favorite is when the referee closest to the play makes the correct call and the "head" referee who is 50-60 yards away overrules the correct call.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Intent to injure - yellow cards ?

                    Originally posted by Cujo
                    Originally posted by Anonymous
                    Saw some ugly play at a tournament game today. (girls)
                    There were several plays where there was no attempt to play the ball.

                    The last straw was a shirt grab and tackle at midfield that got the entire players bench off their seats, not just the overreacting parents.
                    Fortunately, other than the bumps and bruises, there were no apparent serious injuries.

                    I think the officials do the best job they can, some are just better than others. I am all for physical play, and I love to see a good, legal slide tackle. My problem is when they do not step in to protect the players from unduly rough play, and intent to injure. This particular game reached the point where there were frustrated players just throwing their bodies at the opponent.

                    Why bring the yellow cards if you are never, ever going to use them.
                    What was the situation with the shirt grab - did the ref allow for advantage? I had a situation last night where a defender grabbed the jersey (a real fistfull) of the player with the ball but he broke away. Immediately the bench and players started hollering for a foul. I let the play carry on and he scored. You can't have it both ways. I talked to the defender and told him a second flagrant instance would get him a yellow.
                    Sorry, I should have been clearer. After missing the attempt to block a pass, the defending player continued her charge into the player who had just given up the ball, grabbed her shirt and pulled her to the ground in an American football style tackle the Pats would have been proud of.

                    The official did stop the play for a kick, but not even a verbal warning, never mind a card. It would have been an appropriate time to slow things down, but easy to say from the sidelines.
                    Fortunately, the final 4-5 minutes passed without further incident.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Intent to injure - yellow cards ?

                      Originally posted by Anonymous
                      Originally posted by Cujo
                      Originally posted by Anonymous
                      Saw some ugly play at a tournament game today. (girls)
                      There were several plays where there was no attempt to play the ball.

                      The last straw was a shirt grab and tackle at midfield that got the entire players bench off their seats, not just the overreacting parents.
                      Fortunately, other than the bumps and bruises, there were no apparent serious injuries.

                      I think the officials do the best job they can, some are just better than others. I am all for physical play, and I love to see a good, legal slide tackle. My problem is when they do not step in to protect the players from unduly rough play, and intent to injure. This particular game reached the point where there were frustrated players just throwing their bodies at the opponent.

                      Why bring the yellow cards if you are never, ever going to use them.
                      What was the situation with the shirt grab - did the ref allow for advantage? I had a situation last night where a defender grabbed the jersey (a real fistfull) of the player with the ball but he broke away. Immediately the bench and players started hollering for a foul. I let the play carry on and he scored. You can't have it both ways. I talked to the defender and told him a second flagrant instance would get him a yellow.
                      Sorry, I should have been clearer. After missing the attempt to block a pass, the defending player continued her charge into the player who had just given up the ball, grabbed her shirt and pulled her to the ground in an American football style tackle the Pats would have been proud of.

                      The official did stop the play for a kick, but not even a verbal warning, never mind a card. It would have been an appropriate time to slow things down, but easy to say from the sidelines.
                      Fortunately, the final 4-5 minutes passed without further incident.
                      I probably would have given a yellow to the player but always hard to tell unless you see it with your own eyes. Depending on how the game was going the ref might have just said something to her. At a MINIMUM, that should have happened.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        I have some experience watching a U14 boys Columbus Day Tournament for town teams.

                        The officials weren't great but they weren't BAD either. Hearing some parents yell at the ref tends to ruin my enjoyment of the game for me and doesn't set a good example for my 8 year old son watching with me - let alone the other kids in the stands.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Anonymous
                          I have some experience watching a U14 boys Columbus Day Tournament for town teams.

                          The officials weren't great but they weren't BAD either. Hearing some parents yell at the ref tends to ruin my enjoyment of the game for me and doesn't set a good example for my 8 year old son watching with me - let alone the other kids in the stands.
                          Well, I think that the reason there is something like a 50% drop out rate for young refs has to be explained by the abuse they take. When you are older you either tune them out or don't care what the people on the sidelines say. Of course you take abuse from the players but it is their game so it is understandable that they get frustrated if they disagree with your call. The fans are another story - I have seen young refs get absolutely eviscerated by fans and it is really really sad. I recently started reffing and basically can get as many games as I want because the retention rates are so low.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by beentheredonethat
                            Some think the trend started with televized professional sports, in particular basketball. When I was growing up, there wasn't a lot on TV, assuming you had a TV. What might be considered acceptable behavior at professional sports has now trickled down to college, high school and kid's sports. I think we all can relate to vocalizing on a questionable call, but how necessary is it to take it to the "obnoxious" level? I would put that type of behavior on the same plain as road rage.
                            FSM ... I can remember in Jr High having cheerleaders from another school taunting me by singing a song specifically against me. In high school I vividly remember being taunted by fans from the schools. In college I had a grandmother spit in my face while I waited to run on to the field and fans throw bottles at me and my teammates as we came out of the tunnel. I've also sat amongst the Cameron Crazies as one of them. Though I could do without the spitting and bottles, the rest of it actually added to the moment and I wouldn't change those experiences for anything.

                            I agree with this guy. I think we are getting much too PC in sports.....
                            Perhaps you are making my point in regards to the basketball issue. Personally I don't think good adult behavior at youth sporting events is a PC issue. It could be, as you have noted, that things did occur years ago, but I can tell you that where I grew up, the behavior you have related would not have been tolerated. In small town Massachusetts where I grew up the daughter of a school teacher, everyone knew everyone else and the school/athletic directors ruled with an iron fist that nobody questioned. The cheerleaders would have been suspended, granny and the bottle throwers banned for life from all games and even more astonishing, no lawsuits would have resulted. My dad, the school teacher, would have told you that those in charge learned hard discipline from the Jesuits at the college on the hill. ;)

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Geesh! Me again!
                              Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Cujo
                                Originally posted by Anonymous
                                I have some experience watching a U14 boys Columbus Day Tournament for town teams.

                                The officials weren't great but they weren't BAD either. Hearing some parents yell at the ref tends to ruin my enjoyment of the game for me and doesn't set a good example for my 8 year old son watching with me - let alone the other kids in the stands.
                                Well, I think that the reason there is something like a 50% drop out rate for young refs has to be explained by the abuse they take. When you are older you either tune them out or don't care what the people on the sidelines say. Of course you take abuse from the players but it is their game so it is understandable that they get frustrated if they disagree with your call. The fans are another story - I have seen young refs get absolutely eviscerated by fans and it is really really sad. I recently started reffing and basically can get as many games as I want because the retention rates are so low.
                                The drop out rate of refs can not be blamed upon abuse solely. Sure, it's a convenient way to help institute a zero tolerance policy so now we can play soccer in a commando state. Part of the problem has to do with proper training and a knowledge of the game beyond their limited experience. Giving a 16 year old kid the charge of a competitive game with no ideas that he'll have to actually manage the game but then to also give him the authority to red card any one who says anything gives him a holier than thou attitude ( or can ). Refs drop out also because they realize this is not for them. Or they do it temporarily to earn some money. Or they quit because they get a grl friend. Or a car. Or a better job. Or because school work gets harder. or because they don't feel like it any more. Or because their parents get tired of driving them to games and paying for the gas and then waiting 2-3 hours while they ref to stay with them to make sure they are okay. There are many reasons why young refs leave. Do not lay it solely on abuse. And I do agree there is too much abuse but the best way to deal with that is education...not a magic red card wand called the zero tolerance policy

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