Ivy League - Bribes for Admission

[Unregistered]

Hazing? What are you talking about? They aren't pelting them with the soccer balls or not allowing them to drink water after running. Do you have a flip phone too?
Many schools do it as a way to learn to respect those that have paved the way and become part of the pyramid.
#not part of the snowflakes or snowflake parents

I made that initial post. And I actually agree with you. But I will tell you that doing something like that nowadays is 100% hazing. If a student is forced to do anything that the student would not otherwise want to do voluntarily, that's hazing nowadays. Most definitely in the Ivies (trying to stay somewhat on topic) and likely elsewhere. My kid is in a fraternity and this is in fact forbidden by the school. Not on the sports teams though. But I digress . . .

[Unregistered]

I made that initial post. And I actually agree with you. But I will tell you that doing something like that nowadays is 100% hazing. If a student is forced to do anything that the student would not otherwise want to do voluntarily, that's hazing nowadays. Most definitely in the Ivies (trying to stay somewhat on topic) and likely elsewhere. My kid is in a fraternity and this is in fact forbidden by the school. Not on the sports teams though. But I digress . . .

And I agree with the other poster, we have a country of snowflakes because kids don't want to work through the system anymore. Picking up cones or carrying the water jug isn't terrible. Harmless fun and learning pecking order. Climbing the ladder one rung at a time.

[Unregistered]

And received free swag, boots, possibly some hardware from the finalist finish in 2017, who knows. But, most definitely a questionable spot.
Don't let the number fool you. Some really good players have played the game with high numbers on their shirt in tribute to other players, family members.
On my team, the freshman gathered balls, put back the nets, carried the water, and more. And they were actual soccer players that contributed.

It looks pretty good on a post grad resume to be able to say you were a member of a National Championship team, doesn't it?

Employer: "I see you played a year for UCLA's women's soccer team? Why only a year?"

Employee: "It's a very big commitment to play on a team of that caliber. My grades did suffer to some degree because of that commitment, so since I did not see myself playing professional soccer after graduation, I decided I should focus on my academics."

Employer: "When can you start?"

[Unregistered]

This, and reading what the top basketball coaches are getting paid makes me think we've lost perspective as to what higher education is suppose to be all about. And yes, I get that these teams bring a lot of money to the schools, but still it just doesn't seem right. Looking just here in Mass the head football and basketball coaches at UMass are #9 and #10 on the list of "MA's Top 100 Highest-Paid Employees In 2018".

[Unregistered]

I think the whole scandal is deplorable, but frankly what hasn’t gotten enough attention in all this is how bad our higher education system is. Quick run-down:

1) about 80% of full-time college students go to public colleges, but states have cut back on supporting public colleges. Now, most public colleges get less than 25% of their income from the state whereas 30 years ago it was over 50%.

2) same government support that’s helped public colleges is also getting cut from private universities.

3) money that should be spent on actual learning and research has been used by colleges for new buildings and sports programs in a “war” to differentiate themselves from competing schools. Now students have luxury on campus apartments with big gyms instead of basic dorm housing. Schools that may have offered on 10 sports teams many years ago now offer 30 teams with new stadiums and fields that rival pro fields.

4) as a result of #1 and 2 above, students are taking on more and more debt to the point it now hurts the economy since they can’t afford houses, cars, etc. long after graduating.

5) just when higher demand for college education is really kicking in, there are fewer and fewer college seats, in part because new colleges are not opening and many colleges are going bankrupt for the reasons above (less govt support, money not wisely spent, fewer students able to pay).

6) college degree is no longer for upward mobility because it has been reduced to a must even for low paying jobs just like a HS degree. A lot of jobs that pay only $20-30k now require a college degree.

7) our colleges are turning out fewer and fewer STEM graduates when demand is increasing

The fact is that our higher education model is not working and at worst is just breeding the behavior you see in the scandal where anxious rich parents are trying to bribe their kids way into a college seat. The fact is there are fewer seats and they are becoming prohibitively expensive.

[Unregistered]

I think the whole scandal is deplorable, but frankly what hasn’t gotten enough attention in all this is how bad our higher education system is. Quick run-down:

1) about 80% of full-time college students go to public colleges, but states have cut back on supporting public colleges. Now, most public colleges get less than 25% of their income from the state whereas 30 years ago it was over 50%.

2) same government support that’s helped public colleges is also getting cut from private universities.

3) money that should be spent on actual learning and research has been used by colleges for new buildings and sports programs in a “war” to differentiate themselves from competing schools. Now students have luxury on campus apartments with big gyms instead of basic dorm housing. Schools that may have offered on 10 sports teams many years ago now offer 30 teams with new stadiums and fields that rival pro fields.

4) as a result of #1 and 2 above, students are taking on more and more debt to the point it now hurts the economy since they can’t afford houses, cars, etc. long after graduating.

5) just when higher demand for college education is really kicking in, there are fewer and fewer college seats, in part because new colleges are not opening and many colleges are going bankrupt for the reasons above (less govt support, money not wisely spent, fewer students able to pay).

6) college degree is no longer for upward mobility because it has been reduced to a must even for low paying jobs just like a HS degree. A lot of jobs that pay only $20-30k now require a college degree.

7) our colleges are turning out fewer and fewer STEM graduates when demand is increasing

The fact is that our higher education model is not working and at worst is just breeding the behavior you see in the scandal where anxious rich parents are trying to bribe their kids way into a college seat. The fact is there are fewer seats and they are becoming prohibitively expensive.

Very well said, all good points.
Its kind of ironic that with all the government subsidies that colleges get, its very expensive to enroll. I wonder what would happen if the government got out of the way and just let supply and demand dictate college tuition fees and which colleges survive.

[Unregistered]

Is that still allowed nowadays? If that happened at a fraternity it would be called hazing.

Yes, it's still allowed and no, it's not hazing or anything like hazing that gets fraternities in trouble.

[Unregistered]

Very well said, all good points.
Its kind of ironic that with all the government subsidies that colleges get, its very expensive to enroll. I wonder what would happen if the government got out of the way and just let supply and demand dictate college tuition fees and which colleges survive.

I think you are missing my point. Government support should have been RISING for college education and research over the last 50 years instead of declining. Government support of education and research was at its highest as a % of GDP from the 1950’s thru early 1970’s. That’s how the US did so well during this period with rising incomes and leaps in commerce, technology, and the space program. Government “getting out of the way” has led us to what we have now, which is a mess.

[Unregistered]

Very well said, all good points.
Its kind of ironic that with all the government subsidies that colleges get, its very expensive to enroll. I wonder what would happen if the government got out of the way and just let supply and demand dictate college tuition fees and which colleges survive.

Those government subsidies are felt to have contributed to the rising cost of colleges.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/preston...ve-up-tuition/

Way back when I went to a well known Jesuit college the tuition was $8000. You could actually work to help pay part of the tuition. Today you are talking more like $50K. What part time job is going to help pay that?

[Unregistered]

I think the whole scandal is deplorable, but frankly what hasn’t gotten enough attention in all this is how bad our higher education system is. Quick run-down:

1) about 80% of full-time college students go to public colleges, but states have cut back on supporting public colleges. Now, most public colleges get less than 25% of their income from the state whereas 30 years ago it was over 50%.

2) same government support that’s helped public colleges is also getting cut from private universities.

3) money that should be spent on actual learning and research has been used by colleges for new buildings and sports programs in a “war” to differentiate themselves from competing schools. Now students have luxury on campus apartments with big gyms instead of basic dorm housing. Schools that may have offered on 10 sports teams many years ago now offer 30 teams with new stadiums and fields that rival pro fields.

4) as a result of #1 and 2 above, students are taking on more and more debt to the point it now hurts the economy since they can’t afford houses, cars, etc. long after graduating.

5) just when higher demand for college education is really kicking in, there are fewer and fewer college seats, in part because new colleges are not opening and many colleges are going bankrupt for the reasons above (less govt support, money not wisely spent, fewer students able to pay).

6) college degree is no longer for upward mobility because it has been reduced to a must even for low paying jobs just like a HS degree. A lot of jobs that pay only $20-30k now require a college degree.

7) our colleges are turning out fewer and fewer STEM graduates when demand is increasing

The fact is that our higher education model is not working and at worst is just breeding the behavior you see in the scandal where anxious rich parents are trying to bribe their kids way into a college seat. The fact is there are fewer seats and they are becoming prohibitively expensive.

Add to this list the rising costs go to administrators, not professors.

[Unregistered]

I think you are missing my point. Government support should have been RISING for college education and research over the last 50 years instead of declining. Government support of education and research was at its highest as a % of GDP from the 1950’s thru early 1970’s. That’s how the US did so well during this period with rising incomes and leaps in commerce, technology, and the space program. Government “getting out of the way” has led us to what we have now, which is a mess.

See the Forbes article.

You can't compare the 50s to the present. The world was recovering from World War II. The economies of Europe and much of Asia were destroyed. Not so the US because the fight never too place here except for Pearl Harbor.

Government is now paying for people to go to college that perhaps would be better off pursuing something other than a college education. The earnings potential associated with certain careers may not do much to offset the cost of their education.

[Unregistered]

Add to this list the rising costs go to administrators, not professors.

And the quality of education has dropped, dramatically. College graduates are not prepared to enter the workforce and many are lacking basic skills.

Colleges are now taken over by Marxists, more interested in pushing out professors that trigger them than learning how to think critically. Safe spaces, emotional support animals, trigger warnings, etc.

When comics no longer want to do shows on college campuses, you know the rot goes all the way to the core. This latest scandal just shows the whole higher education industry, and that is what it is, an industry, should be blown up and replaced.

[Unregistered]

Those government subsidies are felt to have contributed to the rising cost of colleges.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/preston...ve-up-tuition/

Way back when I went to a well known Jesuit college the tuition was $8000. You could actually work to help pay part of the tuition. Today you are talking more like $50K. What part time job is going to help pay that?

The loans are not government support. They need to be paid back. Government support is using taxes collected to pay for the public good, which includes education and research that keeps the US competive and provides upward mobility/productivity. Most public colleges used to get over 50% of their income from the government with the rest covered by tuition, but now tuition is covering nearly 80% of that income. For private universities, not only did some students qualify for direct government support that has almost disappeared, but the government funded the cutting-edge research that attracted top scholars. That research funding has been cut to the bone.

Ask yourself why costs at your old college grew >6x over the last 25-30 years when inflation and wages have only grown 3x. Better yet go visit. I’ll bet you find plenty of new fancy buildings and apartments in place of simple classrooms and dorms. The student body will probably be more affluent than you recall. In fact, I bet you will wonder whether you would even get in to today.

The issue is that while the US population has doubled in the last 50 years and many more need a college degree just to get a simple job, the number of college seats has not grown to match the need. Demand far outstrips supply so colleges just charge more and more. Add to that less government support and the vast majority are taking out huge loans or shut out entirely.

[Unregistered]

The universities are killing it. How come politicians never go after their money like they go after the working class?

https://thebestschools.org/features/...sity-research/

[Unregistered]

Very well said, all good points.
Its kind of ironic that with all the government subsidies that colleges get, its very expensive to enroll. I wonder what would happen if the government got out of the way and just let supply and demand dictate college tuition fees and which colleges survive.

Most federal funding goes to low-income student financial support (shouldn't cut that; they can barely make it as it is) and university research programs. Some of our best science/technology/ideas come from our universities.