Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Women's World Cup - Referee Gets Handball Wrong

Collapse
X
  •  
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Women's World Cup - Referee Gets Handball Wrong

    In Germany vs. France game, referee calls a handball in the penalty area in the 82nd minute, allowing Germany to tie the game, go to overtime and ultimately win in penalty kicks. I think the call was a poor call, commonly miscalled at the youth levels, but even at this level as evident in this game. The handball was not intentional. In fact, the French player was trying to keep her arms in tight as the German player teed up, particularly her left arm which was the arm the ball struck. The French player was leaning back, bracing to absorb the blow of the ball from the German player who was teeing it up, but there was no unnatural positioning of her arms. The referee expert commentator said the French player "made herself bigger" and therefore it was intentional. He was correct in that the he concept of "making yourself bigger" is consistent with the rule in that this makes a ball to hand strike intentional. However, completely disagree that she "made herself bigger" in an intentional sense. Just because her arms made her bigger than if she did not have arms at all does not make it intentional, because she did not move them unnaturally to "make herself bigger". Based on this, including slow motion replay, this was the wrong call. It also unquestionably changed the outcome of the game. The most misunderstood rule of the game, and probably the most miscalled, at least in terms of effecting the outcome of games like this one. The commentators several times have said "oh, it hit her hand, should be a hand ball" which is not the rule. It's amazing how misunderstood this rule is.

    #2
    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
    In Germany vs. France game, referee calls a handball in the penalty area in the 82nd minute, allowing Germany to tie the game, go to overtime and ultimately win in penalty kicks. I think the call was a poor call, commonly miscalled at the youth levels, but even at this level as evident in this game. The handball was not intentional. In fact, the French player was trying to keep her arms in tight as the German player teed up, particularly her left arm which was the arm the ball struck. The French player was leaning back, bracing to absorb the blow of the ball from the German player who was teeing it up, but there was no unnatural positioning of her arms. The referee expert commentator said the French player "made herself bigger" and therefore it was intentional. He was correct in that the he concept of "making yourself bigger" is consistent with the rule in that this makes a ball to hand strike intentional. However, completely disagree that she "made herself bigger" in an intentional sense. Just because her arms made her bigger than if she did not have arms at all does not make it intentional, because she did not move them unnaturally to "make herself bigger". Based on this, including slow motion replay, this was the wrong call. It also unquestionably changed the outcome of the game. The most misunderstood rule of the game, and probably the most miscalled, at least in terms of effecting the outcome of games like this one. The commentators several times have said "oh, it hit her hand, should be a hand ball" which is not the rule. It's amazing how misunderstood this rule is.
    Sorry. She gained an advantage while her arms were not tight to the body. How can you possibly guess whether it was intentional or not. While I would prefer not to play Germany, I agree with the call.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
      Sorry. She gained an advantage while her arms were not tight to the body. How can you possibly guess whether it was intentional or not. While I would prefer not to play Germany, I agree with the call.
      The rules are exceptionally clear on both your points. First, whether the player gains an advantage or not has no bearing on whether a handball is called. There is no disputing this, as the rules are explicit here. Equally explicit is that the rules say nothing about ones arms being tight to the body. Rather, they say the arm or hand must not be in an unnatural position. There was nothing annatural about the position of her arm. Google the rules and take a read rather than speculating on what they are. This rule is incorrectly applied over and over in this area.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
        The rules are exceptionally clear on both your points. First, whether the player gains an advantage or not has no bearing on whether a handball is called. There is no disputing this, as the rules are explicit here. Equally explicit is that the rules say nothing about ones arms being tight to the body. Rather, they say the arm or hand must not be in an unnatural position. There was nothing annatural about the position of her arm. Google the rules and take a read rather than speculating on what they are. This rule is incorrectly applied over and over in this area.
        FIFA Laws of the game:

        Handling the ball
        Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with
        the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into
        consideration:
        • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
        • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
        • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an
        infringement
        • touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.)
        counts as an infringement
        • hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an
        infringement

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
          FIFA Laws of the game:

          Handling the ball
          Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with
          the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into
          consideration:
          • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
          • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
          • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an
          infringement
          • touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.)
          counts as an infringement
          • hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an
          infringement
          Read the first sentence then look up the word "deliberate". Did the French player deliberately handle the ball? FIFA has issued numerous interpretations of "deliberate" and what the French player did was not deliberate both in laymans terms and as clarified by FIFA in their interpretations.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
            In Germany vs. France game, referee calls a handball in the penalty area in the 82nd minute, allowing Germany to tie the game, go to overtime and ultimately win in penalty kicks. I think the call was a poor call, commonly miscalled at the youth levels, but even at this level as evident in this game. The handball was not intentional. In fact, the French player was trying to keep her arms in tight as the German player teed up, particularly her left arm which was the arm the ball struck. The French player was leaning back, bracing to absorb the blow of the ball from the German player who was teeing it up, but there was no unnatural positioning of her arms. The referee expert commentator said the French player "made herself bigger" and therefore it was intentional. He was correct in that the he concept of "making yourself bigger" is consistent with the rule in that this makes a ball to hand strike intentional. However, completely disagree that she "made herself bigger" in an intentional sense. Just because her arms made her bigger than if she did not have arms at all does not make it intentional, because she did not move them unnaturally to "make herself bigger". Based on this, including slow motion replay, this was the wrong call. It also unquestionably changed the outcome of the game. The most misunderstood rule of the game, and probably the most miscalled, at least in terms of effecting the outcome of games like this one. The commentators several times have said "oh, it hit her hand, should be a hand ball" which is not the rule. It's amazing how misunderstood this rule is.
            You are very wrong and owe me 5 minutes because I bothered to go look at the highlights. The defender actually had her arms out creating a 'T' position with her body which is not a natural position at all. In other words, it was a position she deliberately put them in immediately prior to a cross that she knew was coming.

            Comment


              #7
              Wrong. Wrong, wrong

              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
              In Germany vs. France game, referee calls a handball in the penalty area in the 82nd minute, allowing Germany to tie the game, go to overtime and ultimately win in penalty kicks. I think the call was a poor call, commonly miscalled at the youth levels, but even at this level as evident in this game. The handball was not intentional. In fact, the French player was trying to keep her arms in tight as the German player teed up, particularly her left arm which was the arm the ball struck. The French player was leaning back, bracing to absorb the blow of the ball from the German player who was teeing it up, but there was no unnatural positioning of her arms. The referee expert commentator said the French player "made herself bigger" and therefore it was intentional. He was correct in that the he concept of "making yourself bigger" is consistent with the rule in that this makes a ball to hand strike intentional. However, completely disagree that she "made herself bigger" in an intentional sense. Just because her arms made her bigger than if she did not have arms at all does not make it intentional, because she did not move them unnaturally to "make herself bigger". Based on this, including slow motion replay, this was the wrong call. It also unquestionably changed the outcome of the game. The most misunderstood rule of the game, and probably the most miscalled, at least in terms of effecting the outcome of games like this one. The commentators several times have said "oh, it hit her hand, should be a hand ball" which is not the rule. It's amazing how misunderstood this rule is.
              Her arm was not in a natural position, it made her body form bigger, correct call. Please stop making BS up.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                You are very wrong and owe me 5 minutes because I bothered to go look at the highlights. The defender actually had her arms out creating a 'T' position with her body which is not a natural position at all. In other words, it was a position she deliberately put them in immediately prior to a cross that she knew was coming.
                This is where I think we're going to part ways in this sense. I do think that finally, after you've read and thought about the rules, that you are applying the rules correctly. But I also think you are reading the French player's movements incorrectly. Yes, she was in a kind of T shape. But anyone who has played knows that when you go in to block a shot or a pass with a tackle, your arms often naturally go up to create balance and stability as your body goes in for the tackle. This is natural. Emphasis on NATURAL. You'll note that as she is extending her right foot out her arms go up, as is normal when you do this. Go in your back yard and try it if you've never played. I believe she did not extend her arms out in anticipation of a pass or shot with the intent of being bigger with her arms in any way in an unnatural position. Perfectly natural movement as she extends. In fact, as the German players hits the ball, you see her try to tuck her left arm in behind her body, trying to make herself smaller and take her arm away from the ball, but she simply does not have the time to get it out of the way. And note the FIFA rules speak to this specifically, in that they say the referee needs to consider distance. In other words, does the player have a chance to move her hand or arm out of the way.

                So if your interpretation of her movements is that she created a T position to make herself bigger to prevent the ball from getting through (in other words, this was beyond the natural movement of her arms for balance and stabilization as she extended for an attempted tackle), then you would be correct, this would be a hand ball. I, on the other hand, feel the movement was perfectly natural, with no deliberate intent to be bigger. In fact, I believe she was trying to move her hand away, even though it was in a normal and natural balancing position to start with as she was preparing to challenge by extending her right foot out. But at this point I'm convinced that no matter what, we will interpret the players movements differently, and that's fine, because I have enjoyed the discussion. Overall, this rule is so miscalled and misunderstood, that it needs to be taught better and talked about more intelligently. Below are a couple of good videos. In the first, I agree with all the calls made and the video provides some excellent examples of DELIBERATE HANDLING of the ball. The second video is a referee trying to explain to an ignorant parent what a hand ball is. Drives me nuts when parents start screaming handball every time the ball hits someone's hand The third is a rudimentary discussion of what deliberate handling is that probably every parent, coach, world cup commentator, and referee should watch. The fourth is a great example of how difficult this call is. You'll note that a deliberate handling of the ball was not called, because the referee believed the player's hand movement was not deliberate with an intent to handle the ball. Now this one is a tough one, I must admit. Did the player move his hand in anticipation, or was his body movement natural. I could watch this video twenty times and still not be sure. The last video is a highly qualified referee explaining how difficult the hand ball call is. Did the defender raise his arm deliberately in anticipation or was this a natural movement as he was going in for a challenge. Tough call, but ballsy non-call by the referee. I'm outa here.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFZfc3ApIoU

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3at6sX6a9o

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUASGLxFPoY

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRhLXBnYTPE

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                  Her arm was not in a natural position, it made her body form bigger, correct call. Please stop making BS up.
                  If she DELIBERATELY made her body bigger, you would be right, but if her movement was natural, it doesn't matter if her form was bigger. Your inability to discern the nuances of the rule prevents you form understanding this.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It was a handball. Move on.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                      This is where I think we're going to part ways in this sense. I do think that finally, after you've read and thought about the rules, that you are applying the rules correctly. But I also think you are reading the French player's movements incorrectly. Yes, she was in a kind of T shape. But anyone who has played knows that when you go in to block a shot or a pass with a tackle, your arms often naturally go up to create balance and stability as your body goes in for the tackle. This is natural. Emphasis on NATURAL. You'll note that as she is extending her right foot out her arms go up, as is normal when you do this. Go in your back yard and try it if you've never played. I believe she did not extend her arms out in anticipation of a pass or shot with the intent of being bigger with her arms in any way in an unnatural position. Perfectly natural movement as she extends. In fact, as the German players hits the ball, you see her try to tuck her left arm in behind her body, trying to make herself smaller and take her arm away from the ball, but she simply does not have the time to get it out of the way. And note the FIFA rules speak to this specifically, in that they say the referee needs to consider distance. In other words, does the player have a chance to move her hand or arm out of the way.

                      So if your interpretation of her movements is that she created a T position to make herself bigger to prevent the ball from getting through (in other words, this was beyond the natural movement of her arms for balance and stabilization as she extended for an attempted tackle), then you would be correct, this would be a hand ball. I, on the other hand, feel the movement was perfectly natural, with no deliberate intent to be bigger. In fact, I believe she was trying to move her hand away, even though it was in a normal and natural balancing position to start with as she was preparing to challenge by extending her right foot out. But at this point I'm convinced that no matter what, we will interpret the players movements differently, and that's fine, because I have enjoyed the discussion. Overall, this rule is so miscalled and misunderstood, that it needs to be taught better and talked about more intelligently. Below are a couple of good videos. In the first, I agree with all the calls made and the video provides some excellent examples of DELIBERATE HANDLING of the ball. The second video is a referee trying to explain to an ignorant parent what a hand ball is. Drives me nuts when parents start screaming handball every time the ball hits someone's hand The third is a rudimentary discussion of what deliberate handling is that probably every parent, coach, world cup commentator, and referee should watch. The fourth is a great example of how difficult this call is. You'll note that a deliberate handling of the ball was not called, because the referee believed the player's hand movement was not deliberate with an intent to handle the ball. Now this one is a tough one, I must admit. Did the player move his hand in anticipation, or was his body movement natural. I could watch this video twenty times and still not be sure. The last video is a highly qualified referee explaining how difficult the hand ball call is. Did the defender raise his arm deliberately in anticipation or was this a natural movement as he was going in for a challenge. Tough call, but ballsy non-call by the referee. I'm outa here.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFZfc3ApIoU

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3at6sX6a9o

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUASGLxFPoY

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRhLXBnYTPE

                      This was supposed to be the fourth video

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTLogzmlQYA

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                        This is where I think we're going to part ways in this sense. I do think that finally, after you've read and thought about the rules, that you are applying the rules correctly. But I also think you are reading the French player's movements incorrectly. Yes, she was in a kind of T shape. But anyone who has played knows that when you go in to block a shot or a pass with a tackle, your arms often naturally go up to create balance and stability as your body goes in for the tackle. This is natural. Emphasis on NATURAL. You'll note that as she is extending her right foot out her arms go up, as is normal when you do this. Go in your back yard and try it if you've never played. I believe she did not extend her arms out in anticipation of a pass or shot with the intent of being bigger with her arms in any way in an unnatural position. Perfectly natural movement as she extends. In fact, as the German players hits the ball, you see her try to tuck her left arm in behind her body, trying to make herself smaller and take her arm away from the ball, but she simply does not have the time to get it out of the way. And note the FIFA rules speak to this specifically, in that they say the referee needs to consider distance. In other words, does the player have a chance to move her hand or arm out of the way.

                        So if your interpretation of her movements is that she created a T position to make herself bigger to prevent the ball from getting through (in other words, this was beyond the natural movement of her arms for balance and stabilization as she extended for an attempted tackle), then you would be correct, this would be a hand ball. I, on the other hand, feel the movement was perfectly natural, with no deliberate intent to be bigger. In fact, I believe she was trying to move her hand away, even though it was in a normal and natural balancing position to start with as she was preparing to challenge by extending her right foot out. But at this point I'm convinced that no matter what, we will interpret the players movements differently, and that's fine, because I have enjoyed the discussion. Overall, this rule is so miscalled and misunderstood, that it needs to be taught better and talked about more intelligently. Below are a couple of good videos. In the first, I agree with all the calls made and the video provides some excellent examples of DELIBERATE HANDLING of the ball. The second video is a referee trying to explain to an ignorant parent what a hand ball is. Drives me nuts when parents start screaming handball every time the ball hits someone's hand The third is a rudimentary discussion of what deliberate handling is that probably every parent, coach, world cup commentator, and referee should watch. The fourth is a great example of how difficult this call is. You'll note that a deliberate handling of the ball was not called, because the referee believed the player's hand movement was not deliberate with an intent to handle the ball. Now this one is a tough one, I must admit. Did the player move his hand in anticipation, or was his body movement natural. I could watch this video twenty times and still not be sure. The last video is a highly qualified referee explaining how difficult the hand ball call is. Did the defender raise his arm deliberately in anticipation or was this a natural movement as he was going in for a challenge. Tough call, but ballsy non-call by the referee. I'm outa here.

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFZfc3ApIoU

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3at6sX6a9o

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUASGLxFPoY

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRhLXBnYTPE
                        Wow! You've done a really nice job of providing a very logical explanation and interpretation of this particular call. I very much enjoyed reading it :) I actually felt like you did when I watched it and thought the call was harsh. It is frustrating that so many referees get this call wrong, but it does take a certain amount of insight and understanding about 'natural' body movement to be able to interpret these calls correctly. As a referee, coach, and player myself I feel like when you see a player trying to move their hand away from the ball, then it clearly shows their intention to avoid the ball to hand contact. She was clearly just providing counter balance to her movement by bringing her back hand up, she tried to move it out of the way when the ball was struck, and considering the proximity and speed of the ball this was impossible to do.

                        Why would she deliberately handle the ball in the 82nd minute of a World Cup Quarter-final in the penalty area, making herself into a larger "t-shape" or whatever nonsense, just to try and block a cross coming in?

                        France should have won that game :)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                          Wow! You've done a really nice job of providing a very logical explanation and interpretation of this particular call. I very much enjoyed reading it :) I actually felt like you did when I watched it and thought the call was harsh. It is frustrating that so many referees get this call wrong, but it does take a certain amount of insight and understanding about 'natural' body movement to be able to interpret these calls correctly. As a referee, coach, and player myself I feel like when you see a player trying to move their hand away from the ball, then it clearly shows their intention to avoid the ball to hand contact. She was clearly just providing counter balance to her movement by bringing her back hand up, she tried to move it out of the way when the ball was struck, and considering the proximity and speed of the ball this was impossible to do.

                          Why would she deliberately handle the ball in the 82nd minute of a World Cup Quarter-final in the penalty area, making herself into a larger "t-shape" or whatever nonsense, just to try and block a cross coming in?

                          France should have won that game :)
                          The turd in the punch bowl has to enter the conversation to label legitimate opinions as nonsense. Sure, no player ever does anything that to an objective viewer makes no sense. Just ask Thiago Silva who just got his team booted from the Copa America.
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLWTd0Z0VCU

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                            Wow! You've done a really nice job of providing a very logical explanation and interpretation of this particular call. I very much enjoyed reading it :) I actually felt like you did when I watched it and thought the call was harsh. It is frustrating that so many referees get this call wrong, but it does take a certain amount of insight and understanding about 'natural' body movement to be able to interpret these calls correctly. As a referee, coach, and player myself I feel like when you see a player trying to move their hand away from the ball, then it clearly shows their intention to avoid the ball to hand contact. She was clearly just providing counter balance to her movement by bringing her back hand up, she tried to move it out of the way when the ball was struck, and considering the proximity and speed of the ball this was impossible to do.

                            Why would she deliberately handle the ball in the 82nd minute of a World Cup Quarter-final in the penalty area, making herself into a larger "t-shape" or whatever nonsense, just to try and block a cross coming in?

                            France should have won that game :)
                            If you don't want a hand ball call don't touch the ball with your hands. Whether it was intentional or not was up to the discretion of the referee. While some may feel the body motion was unintentional, the referee saw it otherwise. As a referee, you should support the call. They make a split second determination, and even after careful review, I agree with them. Not you.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                              FIFA Laws of the game:

                              Handling the ball
                              Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with
                              the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into
                              consideration:
                              • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
                              • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
                              • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an
                              infringement
                              • touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.)
                              counts as an infringement
                              • hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an
                              infringement
                              Thank you! Hand ball, duh. The rule book supports the call, now shut this stupid thread down.

                              Comment

                              Previously entered content was automatically saved. Restore or Discard.
                              Auto-Saved
                              x
                              Insert: Thumbnail Small Medium Large Fullsize Remove  
                              x
                              Working...
                              X