Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Equal pay

Collapse
X
  •  
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Equal pay

    I love my daughters and love watching the world cup but am I the only one sick of seeing equal pay mentioned on every broadcast and in every article? I support equal pay in a business environment where my kid should be paid the same amount for the same work but as awesome as the womens national team is, even my daughter doesn't think they deserve equal pay.

    She did a school project on this last month. Some interesting data point I remember:
    -on Fox womens national team games average 60k viewers while men avg 240k viewers
    -the last womens final brought Fox $17m while mens final brought $530m
    -FIFA generated $4.5b in direct revenue for last mens wc while women brought FIFA $300m
    -when Lifetime TV invested in NWSL and started airing game of the week on Sat, ratings dropped from 300k for show/movie repeats they were running to less than 20k for live games. Ratings dropped so bad they killed ratings for Lifetime shows later in the day and they stopped airing games and had to write off their investments
    -in the last winter olympics, bobsledding, curling, and biathlon had higher ratings than all group stage games in last womens wc

    Also she found that women already make more. They get 13% of wc revenue from us soccer compared to 9% for men.

    We love watching the games but even my girl who is a strong independent badass who can go toe to toe with any boy gets pissed off when people talk about equal pay for female players. This debate weakens the equal pay arguement elsewhere... like in the business world where women do DESERVE to be paid equally (or comparably)

    Can't we just enjoy the sport and leave the pay discussion out of it?

    #2
    These points have all been made public yet the general public doesn't see it that way. Perception is reality to them - the women win, the men don't. But the team contracts are in part based on revenues not just wins. They already get bonuses for wins. If they want a new compensation structure then negotiate a new one. The team took it to court because they knew it would win in the court of public opinion. It may not win legally.

    That said, when it comes to things like equal travel, more grass games instead of turf etc there is no excuse for not giving the women the same things.

    Comment


      #3
      All good points. And, the system they’re challenging is the result of their collective and individual contractual agreements. Don’t like it? Then use your leverage to negotiate better terms, just as NFL, MLB, etc., players have done for years.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
        I love my daughters and love watching the world cup but am I the only one sick of seeing equal pay mentioned on every broadcast and in every article? I support equal pay in a business environment where my kid should be paid the same amount for the same work but as awesome as the womens national team is, even my daughter doesn't think they deserve equal pay.

        She did a school project on this last month. Some interesting data point I remember:
        -on Fox womens national team games average 60k viewers while men avg 240k viewers
        -the last womens final brought Fox $17m while mens final brought $530m
        -FIFA generated $4.5b in direct revenue for last mens wc while women brought FIFA $300m
        -when Lifetime TV invested in NWSL and started airing game of the week on Sat, ratings dropped from 300k for show/movie repeats they were running to less than 20k for live games. Ratings dropped so bad they killed ratings for Lifetime shows later in the day and they stopped airing games and had to write off their investments
        -in the last winter olympics, bobsledding, curling, and biathlon had higher ratings than all group stage games in last womens wc

        Also she found that women already make more. They get 13% of wc revenue from us soccer compared to 9% for men.

        We love watching the games but even my girl who is a strong independent badass who can go toe to toe with any boy gets pissed off when people talk about equal pay for female players. This debate weakens the equal pay arguement elsewhere... like in the business world where women do DESERVE to be paid equally (or comparably)

        Can't we just enjoy the sport and leave the pay discussion out of it?
        Excellent post.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
          Excellent post.
          Agreed. Unfortunately, the post outlined some reasonable, rational, data-driven arguments. The pundits, media, and everyone else chiming in makes emotional and politically motivated arguments. I don't like that women get paid less but there are many things in this world that I don't like but accept because there are legitimate reasons behind them.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
            I love my daughters and love watching the world cup but am I the only one sick of seeing equal pay mentioned on every broadcast and in every article? I support equal pay in a business environment where my kid should be paid the same amount for the same work but as awesome as the womens national team is, even my daughter doesn't think they deserve equal pay.

            She did a school project on this last month. Some interesting data point I remember:
            -on Fox womens national team games average 60k viewers while men avg 240k viewers
            -the last womens final brought Fox $17m while mens final brought $530m
            >>>>How is this relevant as the men's team didn't even make the WC while at least our WNT was in the final. Also, Fox's revenues have nothing to do with USSF revenues.
            -FIFA generated $4.5b in direct revenue for last mens wc while women brought FIFA $300m
            >>>>Again, how is this relevant as the MNT didn't even qualify?
            -when Lifetime TV invested in NWSL and started airing game of the week on Sat, ratings dropped from 300k for show/movie repeats they were running to less than 20k for live games. Ratings dropped so bad they killed ratings for Lifetime shows later in the day and they stopped airing games and had to write off their investments
            >>>>Not sure how this is relevant as that's the pro league, not the national team.
            -in the last winter olympics, bobsledding, curling, and biathlon had higher ratings than all group stage games in last womens wc
            >>>>So did Oprah, but again, not sure how relevant
            Also she found that women already make more. They get 13% of wc revenue from us soccer compared to 9% for men.

            We love watching the games but even my girl who is a strong independent badass who can go toe to toe with any boy gets pissed off when people talk about equal pay for female players. This debate weakens the equal pay arguement elsewhere... like in the business world where women do DESERVE to be paid equally (or comparably)

            Can't we just enjoy the sport and leave the pay discussion out of it?
            This is a terrible post. Most of your arguments (haha, sorry, your daughter's) are not directly relevant. Here is the bottom line -- the national teams are monopolies granted by the governing organizations. The players on the USWNT have no other way to sell their services - trust me, I'm sure if this was a free market our players could make many, many multiples to play for another federation. So, it's really hard to say sure, you're massively successful, global ambassadors with unbelievable Q scores (I mean, could your average person name *one* USMNT player?) but we're going to pay you a fraction of the men.

            On your direct points, the USSF derive their revenue from many sources, one of which is television rights; however, they include many things, such as the $24.6 million Nike paid last year as sponsor. Do you think Nike doesn't value the women's team equally, if not more than, the men's team? A huge chunk of USSF revenue recently was from the Copa American Centenario. Sure, this was a men's tournament, and it was great seeing the MNT reach the semis, but is this revenue related to US Soccer generally, or that MNT specifically? Really, we get that tournament because we're the USA, just like we're getting the World Cup, not because of our MNT (frankly in spite of our MNT). All those revenues need to go into a coffer and then pay the men and women national teams equally for equal work, full stop.

            Comment


              #7
              and? The women's CONCAF was played to half empty stadiums. Bet that didn't bring much money or attention to WNT (where many of their victories were 5+-0 btw). Each gender has it's own draw of ticket sales, sponsorships, ad $ etc. If Nike pays more for their men's team sponsorship then that is because the men's game in general gives them more exposure, both here and abroad. Sponsors and advertisers literally have teams of savvy marketers determining what they are willing to pay and what they think that will bring them. There's just more money and attention paid to men's soccer, even when the team can't win a trophy. If the women want their pay to determined by different measures then go back to the bargaining table. Filing a lawsuit was a publicity stunt. They knew most Americans wouldn't understand the compensation structure so it's easy to cry - equal pay for equal work!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                All good points. And, the system they’re challenging is the result of their collective and individual contractual agreements. Don’t like it? Then use your leverage to negotiate better terms, just as NFL, MLB, etc., players have done for years.
                I think that is what they are trying to do, no?

                I am guessing their endorsement income is quite a bit greater than any of the men on the USMNT, though.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                  I think that is what they are trying to do, no?

                  I am guessing their endorsement income is quite a bit greater than any of the men on the USMNT, though.
                  Endorsements are only one ingredient in the total pie.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                    and? The women's CONCAF was played to half empty stadiums. Bet that didn't bring much money or attention to WNT (where many of their victories were 5+-0 btw). Each gender has it's own draw of ticket sales, sponsorships, ad $ etc. If Nike pays more for their men's team sponsorship then that is because the men's game in general gives them more exposure, both here and abroad. Sponsors and advertisers literally have teams of savvy marketers determining what they are willing to pay and what they think that will bring them. There's just more money and attention paid to men's soccer, even when the team can't win a trophy. If the women want their pay to determined by different measures then go back to the bargaining table. Filing a lawsuit was a publicity stunt. They knew most Americans wouldn't understand the compensation structure so it's easy to cry - equal pay for equal work!
                    that's a lot of supposition, so here goes facts and data, derived from the US Soccer Federation audited financial statements:

                    1. you are incorrect about the sponsorship. the nike sponsorship is a catch-all. $16mm is a "base fee" so only nike knows who they value more. nike merch royalties only totalled $5.2mm and who knows who sold more. other sponsorships are not material.

                    2. game revenues (ex Copa) total less than 25% of total revenues. However, importantly, the US women total attendance in 2018 was 253,151, versus US men total attendance of 169,141. Yes, the men averaged more (24k vs 14k) but the women played more games and drew more total paying customers, so hard to say they didn't make more money for the USSF.

                    3. the final piece of this puzzle is the marketing agreement with Soccer United Marketing (SUM). this is a totally opaque agreement that covers a whole host of marketing, including *both* the national teams AND MLS. It's a flat amount with no disclosure as to the constituent components, but clearly a lot is related to MLS, given the sheer # of games that are played relative to the 7 home matches the USMNT played in 2018.

                    The amounts of #1-3 represent about 75% of USSF revenues, with another 10% coming from registration fees, and other revenues. Easy to say that of the remaining 25% of revenue, the bulk in non-national team related.

                    So in summary, 25% of revenue comes from sponsorship that doesn't seem to be skewed by gender, 25% of revenue comes from tickets where the women outsell the men, 25% of the revenue comes from a marketing agreement that frankly has parts of the MLS included, and 25% comes from non-national team related revenue.

                    Really hard to see your argument that somehow the halo effect of the USMNT means they should get paid more. Also really hard to see how a "bargaining table" works in a monopoly, when you can't sell your services to the highest bidder.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                      I love my daughters and love watching the world cup but am I the only one sick of seeing equal pay mentioned on every broadcast and in every article? I support equal pay in a business environment where my kid should be paid the same amount for the same work but as awesome as the womens national team is, even my daughter doesn't think they deserve equal pay.

                      She did a school project on this last month. Some interesting data point I remember:
                      -on Fox womens national team games average 60k viewers while men avg 240k viewers
                      -the last womens final brought Fox $17m while mens final brought $530m
                      -FIFA generated $4.5b in direct revenue for last mens wc while women brought FIFA $300m
                      -when Lifetime TV invested in NWSL and started airing game of the week on Sat, ratings dropped from 300k for show/movie repeats they were running to less than 20k for live games. Ratings dropped so bad they killed ratings for Lifetime shows later in the day and they stopped airing games and had to write off their investments
                      -in the last winter olympics, bobsledding, curling, and biathlon had higher ratings than all group stage games in last womens wc

                      Also she found that women already make more. They get 13% of wc revenue from us soccer compared to 9% for men.

                      We love watching the games but even my girl who is a strong independent badass who can go toe to toe with any boy gets pissed off when people talk about equal pay for female players. This debate weakens the equal pay arguement elsewhere... like in the business world where women do DESERVE to be paid equally (or comparably)

                      Can't we just enjoy the sport and leave the pay discussion out of it?
                      Not to mention that USSF props up the pro league and pays salaries and benefits for national team members playing in the pro league that no one watches.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                        I think that is what they are trying to do, no?

                        I am guessing their endorsement income is quite a bit greater than any of the men on the USMNT, though.
                        The point is they agreed to the contract in the first place. It wasn't forced on them. They should not have signed if they thought it was unfair

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post


                          Really hard to see your argument that somehow the halo effect of the USMNT means they should get paid more. Also really hard to see how a "bargaining table" works in a monopoly, when you can't sell your services to the highest bidder.
                          The men's team also gets a small piece of the FIFA pie. It's a really big pie. Women do too but the pie is smaller because it's the women's pie.

                          As for the bargaining table the women hold the upper hand in terms of public support. It will be even stronger if they win the title again. But it is the agreement they signed. In court they probably won't have any ground to stand on. All they can do is use the public support as the chip in negotiating a new deal.

                          not the poster

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                            Not to mention that USSF props up the pro league and pays salaries and benefits for national team members playing in the pro league that no one watches.
                            I mean if Lifetime can't even justify broadcasting games....

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                              The men's team also gets a small piece of the FIFA pie. It's a really big pie. Women do too but the pie is smaller because it's the women's pie.

                              As for the bargaining table the women hold the upper hand in terms of public support. It will be even stronger if they win the title again. But it is the agreement they signed. In court they probably won't have any ground to stand on. All they can do is use the public support as the chip in negotiating a new deal.

                              not the poster
                              omfg. I just went thru the sources of revenue! please stop with these unsourced anecdotes about FIFA pies! if they exist they are not material to the overall revenue of USSF.

                              and look, yes, the women did a great job of getting some concessions in their last CBA, but let's face it, they started from such a crappy position (artificial turf anyone?) that just getting something was something. it's not like these women have a lot of free time to act as their own CBA advocates.

                              the broader issue is why is everyone up in arms about this? we have the most successful women's soccer team in history, winners of 3 world cups and 4 gold medals. girls make up, i dunno, half the soccer players in our country. equal pay for equal work isn't a difficult concept, and is actually the law.

                              Comment

                              Previously entered content was automatically saved. Restore or Discard.
                              Auto-Saved
                              x
                              Insert: Thumbnail Small Medium Large Fullsize Remove  
                              x
                              Working...
                              X