Serious studies and College soccer

[beentheredonethat]

To My3.0IsBiggerThanYour3.0. Please read this quote again.

Well, in law, they may ask your GPA for the first job, but when they do they but here's how it plays out:

Top 20 national law school-just don't be in the bottom 25% (unless you are determined to go to NYC, in which case they are looking for top 25% and law review editor. The rest of the country however, generally doesn't care)

Next 20 national law school--just don't be in the bottom 50%

Good regionally known school -- you better be in the top 25%, law review helps, and you need to stay in the area.

Anything else, good luck.

But after the first job, the name on the diploma still gets you in the door if its a top national school, but otherwise what have you done since then? On the other hand, if its not a top law school you first need to figure out how to get in the door.

Does any of this even apply to a kid with a 3.0 (regardless of where they go)? My point has always been that just scraping by isn’t going to cut it, no matter where you go. The statistics cited above would indicate, to at least me, that if a kid is trying to follow an academic path to a top end job they have to be a top producing student. My experience was that playing a sport can really derail that pursuit and even the best prepared student were not immune so that kids who are reaching academically can really have things stacked against them. This is the reason I advocate reducing the academic rigour. I think it gives an athlete a shot of compensating academically if they are truly committed to their studies. I absolutely understand that you and your kid’s teachers are the only ones who will have any idea if they are likely succeed. I guess my pessimism comes from seeing a lot of folks (myself included) underestimate the situation.

[beentheredonethat]

In principal I absolutely agree with AcademicsAreThePriority's point of view. The only problem is I don't think this point of view accounts for the individual's dreams nor the institutional expectations that are carried with a scholarship. If your kid dreams of playing sports in college and actually has the talent to do it, realistically there is no way that a parent is going to stop them without incurring a whole lot of resentment down the road. I personally agree with the earlier poster that it is far better to educate your kid about the realities, shape their views and gently nudge them down a path where they might achieve those dreams while still preserving a fallback plan if they don’t. Kids who want to play a sport in college need to know that it is a tough road to follow and it will compromise a whole lot of their educational opportunity unless they are strictly focus on being a good student. The problem is, I find that few people actually understand the athletic pressures that come with participating at the college level. Most of what people are writing is based upon conjecture and it appears that there are very few people posting here that have actually travelled the path they are suggesting. I would suggest to them that being overly optimistic could create more problems than they think.

The kid that plays at the D1 level has to enter into that situation placing their sports performance ahead of their academic performance. What people don’t realize is that this expectation is actually no different for the kid who given a scholarship to dance, make movies or be an engineer. If the school is giving a kid a scholarship they expect them to immerse themselves in their particular endeavor. Along with this come all sorts of compromises. For example, I ran across a kid who has committed to a state school in one of the other New England states. They have her starting classes in July so she can take a reduced class load during the season. Another example I’ve heard of is having athletes in difficult majors take tough course at community colleges so that they can reduce the rigour. Whether people want to realize this or not, all of this is being done because the schools themselves recognize just how difficult it is to play a sport and go to school.

The illusion that many on this forum seem to have that this is somehow radically different at the D3 level is just wrong. The only real difference between D1 and D3 programs from a commitment level centers around the offseason and how much supervision the athletes can get. In this respect I actually believe it may be tougher to be a D3 athlete than a D1 because the expectations are relatively the same but the support is far less. I’ve never heard that coaches at the D3 level have any less desire to win than D1 coaches. While the D3 coach may be far more accommodating to academics, they still expect their athletes to work out and do the things needed to be successful in their sport. One should not think that there isn’t pressure to do this. I know this rankles many on this thread, but I wonder why even bother if a kid is choosing a school for academics to begin with. I’m of the belief that if academics truly are the priority then you want to minimize anything that could hamper that (including a big time commitment like a sport). While I absolutely recognize that you can’t dictate to a kid that they can’t play, If you can, it probably is in their best interest long term that you nudge away from it.

[beentheredonethat]

YouAndFDUSux .. I have you pegged as one of those angry soccer parents who got to the end of the road and realize that your kid was a step too slow and no college wants. I would not be surprised at all if you were that over the top personality who thought that by simply being on a top level team your kid was destined for glory. Once you figured out that a D1 scholarship was not waiting for your kid, you switched gears and it became all about using soccer to maximize the educational opportunity. Bet you were just pining away for that “tip”. Did it ever come? I don’t know where your kid ended up but I hope that they are as happy with their choice as my kid is with hers. Best of luck to them and you.

[beentheredonethat]

Back to soccer...

BTDT I agree with your premise that being a college scholar/athlete is demanding and some are not up to the challenge.

Your financial argument is more convoluted. It seems to be based on the idea that college athletic money is the driver of your decision to attend a particular school. The D1/ D3 comparison is apples and oranges as has been debated here.

I am curious how many D1 programs offered? It's one thing to say my kid could have played at BC or Notre Dame and you took a lower tier NEC program because it fit your academic/athletic profile. It is quite another thing to say that the school your kid is going to is typical of the type of program that was interested in her soccer.

I hope you will continue to post on your daughters experience in college.

She got 6 offers of varying degrees and probably another 6 real solid inquires. Only 2 were D2 schools and both were real powerful programs (sorry forgot 1). Though some of those solid inquiries were from top level D1 programs, we tried to be fairly realistic and assumed that she would likely never see the field at any of them. Being able to contribute early was one of my daughter’s significant criteria and though she had pretty reasonable academic record I would be lying if I didn’t add that it came with our foot firmly implanted in her backside. FDU is a really good fit on a lot of levels.

[Unregistered]

She got 6 offers of varying degrees and probably another 6 real solid inquires. Only 1 was a D2 school and it was a real powerful program. Though some of those solid inquiries were from top level D1 programs, we tried to be fairly realistic and assumed that she would likely never see the field at any of them. Being able to contribute early was one of my daughter’s significant criteria and though she had pretty reasonable academic record I would be lying if I didn’t add that it came with our foot firmly implanted in her backside. FDU is a really good fit on a lot of levels.

Good, honest answer. I wish her the best, and hope they will not concede 6 goals to Navy next time.

I would offer this caveat about D1 even D2 and D3 as well. Be real about your own/childs abilities. I know kids that have been in programs where they rarely play. Even big time programs leave healthy players home if they don't make the travel squad, airfare ain't cheap. No playing time has cut short many college sport careers.

[Unregistered]

Well, BTDT, I guess you didn't get voted off the island after all.

I must be the JustWantToHaveFun guy. You're obviously brighter (I think) than your posts which have degenerated into hollow rhetoric. You're dug in, and you never concede a point. You make caricatures out of the arguments (and the posters as evidenced by your latest foray into giving them all dismissive nicknames).

There are lots of bright kids out there (probably including yours), and there are a good many -- not just the exceptional case studies -- who can handle and even thrive with good academics and athletics. By the same token, being a marginal D1 athlete shouldn't be confused with the hungry, driven, inner-city kid on his way to the NBA. You contradict yourself endlessly. You talk about dreams that can't be quelled and then you talk about withdrawal of support if a different type of college is selected. You don't attack a dream to play D1 at all costs even though (in your view) it seems inconsistent with all of your points about future success, and yet you criticize someone choosing to play at a level that is actually realistic for them and which MAY enhance their academic pursuits. There are many posters here who played a sport in college. I played D1, I had fun, and I obtained a Ph.D. I wasn't a genius. I worked really hard when I needed to and I developed a specific interest that I followed passionately. Some of the rest of us are also smart and fairly sophisticated, and despite likely having our share of neuroses, a good many of us also probably can realistically evaluate our kids and their college aspirations.

And your whole 3.0 at Williams thing is just not worth discussing because you are just wrong. Blatantly wrong.

[Unregistered]

YouAndFDUSux .. I have you pegged as one of those angry soccer parents who got to the end of the road and realize that your kid was a step too slow and no college wants. I would not be surprised at all if you were that over the top personality who thought that by simply being on a top level team your kid was destined for glory. Once you figured out that a D1 scholarship was not waiting for your kid, you switched gears and it became all about using soccer to maximize the educational opportunity. Bet you were just pining away for that “tip”. Did it ever come? I don’t know where your kid ended up but I hope that they are as happy with their choice as my kid is with hers. Best of luck to them and you.

Is this you response to posting Williams-FDU stats? FDUsux? Why so sensitive?

[Unregistered]

In principal I absolutely agree with [B]
The illusion that many on this forum seem to have that this is somehow radically different at the D3 level is just wrong. The only real difference between D1 and D3 programs from a commitment level centers around the offseason and how much supervision the athletes can get. In this respect I actually believe it may be tougher to be a D3 athlete than a D1 because the expectations are relatively the same but the support is far less. I’ve never heard that coaches at the D3 level have any less desire to win than D1 coaches. While the D3 coach may be far more accommodating to academics, they still expect their athletes to work out and do the things needed to be successful in their sport. One should not think that there isn’t pressure to do this. I know this rankles many on this thread, but I wonder why even bother if a kid is choosing a school for academics to begin with. I’m of the belief that if academics truly are the priority then you want to minimize anything that could hamper that (including a big time commitment like a sport). While I absolutely recognize that you can’t dictate to a kid that they can’t play, If you can, it probably is in their best interest long term that you nudge away from it.

I disagree with the idea that D3 sports aren't radically less demanding than D1. I definitely agree that the D1 athelete may be forced to sacrifice their academics to keep their spot on the team. I know several parents of D1 kids who quit after a season or two, only to discover they had absolutely no interest in being at their college anymore--and a weak academic record to overcome in trying to transfer. And other D1 players who quit because they refused to sacrifice their academics and the rest of their experience at their college. So yes, if playing D1 is the goal, you need to think really hard about how the academic piece is going to fit your child's abilities to handle it all.

But I think for kids who want to be scholar atheletes, D3 is still a very good option, even at strong academic institutions. My son's experience as a D3 scholar athelete at Amherst has been very positive. And manageable. Sometimes he feels a bit pressured, but usually the pressure has to do with his own time management. Friends of his who received academic tips don't seem to be having any more difficulty than anyone else in balancing academics and the demands of their sport. I am sure his coach wants to win just as much as any D1 coach, but his coach also regularly emphasizes the importance of each of his players getting the most out of the academic opportunities they have.

I would be interested in hearing what parents of D3 atheletes in other schools think about the demands there since, of course, I have only my son's experience to relay.

[beentheredonethat]

Well, BTDT, I guess you didn't get voted off the island after all.

I must be the JustWantToHaveFun guy. You're obviously brighter (I think) than your posts which have degenerated into hollow rhetoric. You're dug in, and you never concede a point. You make caricatures out of the arguments (and the posters as evidenced by your latest foray into giving them all dismissive nicknames).

There are lots of bright kids out there (probably including yours), and there are a good many -- not just the exceptional case studies -- who can handle and even thrive with good academics and athletics. By the same token, being a marginal D1 athlete shouldn't be confused with the hungry, driven, inner-city kid on his way to the NBA. You contradict yourself endlessly. You talk about dreams that can't be quelled and then you talk about withdrawal of support if a different type of college is selected. You don't attack a dream to play D1 at all costs even though (in your view) it seems inconsistent with all of your points about future success, and yet you criticize someone choosing to play at a level that is actually realistic for them and which MAY enhance their academic pursuits. There are many posters here who played a sport in college. I played D1, I had fun, and I obtained a Ph.D. I wasn't a genius. I worked really hard when I needed to and I developed a specific interest that I followed passionately. Some of the rest of us are also smart and fairly sophisticated, and despite likely having our share of neuroses, a good many of us also probably can realistically evaluate our kids and their college aspirations.

And your whole 3.0 at Williams thing is just not worth discussing because you are just wrong. Blatantly wrong.

I gave everyone names to help identify the posters and have some fun with those who post anonymously. Honestly, what is the big deal about giving some made up name and signing your posts with it?

I am not criticizing a kid for wanting to play at whatever level they are capable, but I am suggesting that they should be careful what they wish for. I keep coming back to the point that if the priority IS academics then you might want to consider limiting things that work against being a good student. If you think playing a sport doesn't impact a student's ability to study, there is not much to discuss.

Another issue that you and I seem worlds apart on is the notion of letting a kid off the hook for what I see as under performing academically. Though I will admit that I haven't gotten there yet, what I have been advised is the only real way to assert any control over a college kid is via their wallet. If the kid is not producing academically up to their ability I see no problem pulling in the financial reigns to catch their attention. Obvously you don't agree.

If you don't like my advice, why don't you offer something different? Please tell us exactly how you would recommend for a kid to parlay their youth athletic expereince into a successful career. Please keep in mind a broad spectrum of athletic and academic abilities, as well as intensity levels and family resources.

[Unregistered]

I disagree with the idea that D3 sports aren't radically less demanding than D1. I definitely agree that the D1 athelete may be forced to sacrifice their academics to keep their spot on the team. I know several parents of D1 kids who quit after a season or two, only to discover they had absolutely no interest in being at their college anymore--and a weak academic record to overcome in trying to transfer. And other D1 players who quit because they refused to sacrifice their academics and the rest of their experience at their college. So yes, if playing D1 is the goal, you need to think really hard about how the academic piece is going to fit your child's abilities to handle it all.

But I think for kids who want to be scholar atheletes, D3 is still a very good option, even at strong academic institutions. My son's experience as a D3 scholar athelete at Amherst has been very positive. And manageable. Sometimes he feels a bit pressured, but usually the pressure has to do with his own time management. Friends of his who received academic tips don't seem to be having any more difficulty than anyone else in balancing academics and the demands of their sport. I am sure his coach wants to win just as much as any D1 coach, but his coach also regularly emphasizes the importance of each of his players getting the most out of the academic opportunities they have.

I would be interested in hearing what parents of D3 atheletes in other schools think about the demands there since, of course, I have only my son's experience to relay.

The three seniors from the 2008 MIT team (graduated June 2009): one grad school in chem, one med school, one doing development work in Africa.

[Unregistered]

The three seniors from the 2008 MIT team (graduated June 2009): one grad school in chem, one med school, one doing development work in Africa.

OK so three players did well. Where there any other players that graduated last year? How many players did they start with in their freshman year?

[Unregistered]

OK so three players did well. Where there any other players that graduated last year? How many players did they start with in their freshman year?

I'm sure all the other MIT grads -- that's right, they ALL graduate! -- are working at 7/11.

[Unregistered]

OK so three players did well. Where there any other players that graduated last year? How many players did they start with in their freshman year?

There were 6 freshman on the 2005 team. One was a lacrosse kid who only played soccer freshman year; not sure what happened to her. One dropped soccer because of the academic conflict after three years; she is getting a masters in Arch. The third also dropped soccer after three years; I believe she got a Wall Street job.

[Unregistered]

I gave everyone names to help identify the posters and have some fun with those who post anonymously. Honestly, what is the big deal about giving some made up name and signing your posts with it?

I am not criticizing a kid for wanting to play at whatever level they are capable, but I am suggesting that they should be careful what they wish for. I keep coming back to the point that if the priority IS academics then you might want to consider limiting things that work against being a good student. If you think playing a sport doesn't impact a student's ability to study, there is not much to discuss.

Another issue that you and I seem worlds apart on is the notion of letting a kid off the hook for what I see as under performing academically. Though I will admit that I haven't gotten there yet, what I have been advised is the only real way to assert any control over a college kid is via their wallet. If the kid is not producing academically up to their ability I see no problem pulling in the financial reigns to catch their attention. Obvously you don't agree.

If you don't like my advice, why don't you offer something different? Please tell us exactly how you would recommend for a kid to parlay their youth athletic expereince into a successful career. Please keep in mind a broad spectrum of athletic and academic abilities, as well as intensity levels and family resources.

No problem with the nicknames. We want you to have fun.

Suggesting that I offer some ideas is really funny. I, and many other posters, have offered MANY ideas. You always choose to ignore them, just as you AGAIN ignored all the points in my last post.

We don't disagree about our kids screwing up or underperforming. We just define that differently, and frankly I think you cornered yourself into this 3.0 at Williams thing and I'm sure wish you had said 2.5 or 2.0. You look foolish on this one, and if you don't think a 3.0 at Williams serves someone in long run better than a 3.0 or 3.25 at the majority of other schools you are just wrong. A 3.0 at Williams means a kid is doing well at one of the top 2 LACs in the US. If my kid went to Williams and earned a 2.5 we would talk. If he earned a 2.0 we would transfer or look at a different path. You repeatedly have ignored the suggestion that some kids do better playing a sport or evidence that high school students do as well or better in-season. You make college soccer, even at D3, sound like it's life and death. Maybe there was incredible pressure on you given a family legacy and Duke struggling to compete in the ACC or whatever, but it's not THAT serious. The coach at Colby who's been there 30 years is not worried about losing his job. How do all the kids who play sports at all of the top-tier and next-tier D3s manage? Maybe you think these schools shouldn't even offer sports, but wait, where exactly are 99% of the D1 athletes headed???

[Unregistered]

There were 6 freshman on the 2005 team. One was a lacrosse kid who only played soccer freshman year; not sure what happened to her. One dropped soccer because of the academic conflict after three years; she is getting a masters in Arch. The third also dropped soccer after three years; I believe she got a Wall Street job.

I think you would see similar results from places like Williams and Amherst.